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Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by joelbluminator on Friday June 05, 2020 @08:25AM (#23427681)
The talent is there, the money could be there if Europeans governments take it seriously, so why not? What's stopping EU from building an AWS equivalent? It's not rocket science. If Europe could come up with companies like ASML which are at the top of chip engineering, they can definitely build software infrastructure. Some of your points ring true but A) What used to be doesn't mean it will always be B) U.S has it's own problems as you can see
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by Vosporos on Friday June 05, 2020 @09:37AM (#23428343)
I am French and the few last software projects the state has been involved in were utter catastrophes.

The code that is used to dispatch high-school graduates according to their choice was recently audited by the Court of Auditors[0], and the StopCOVID application's source code was released[1].

The problem is that innovation is just a buzzword. They still hand out millions to private actors like Atos, Accenture, etc, while managers are patting themselves on the back and produce the shittiest software possible to get a 10 years maintenance contract that will cost hundreds of millions.

I'm not saying it's better in other countries, I'm just saying that people must realise that the French state should not be trusted to produce high-quality software.

[0]: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&tl=en&u=h... [1]: https://gitlab.inria.fr/stopcovid19/stopcovid-android

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by ur-whale on Friday June 05, 2020 @09:51AM (#23428503)
> that the French state should not be trusted to produce high-quality software.

States should neither be trusted nor simply be involved in producing anything.

That's not what they're for and they are therefore profoundly incapable of doing it.

The simple fact that they are not subjected to competitive pressure is argument enough to prove my point, but it's far from the only one.

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by viraptor on Friday June 05, 2020 @08:55AM (#23427922)
> What's stopping EU from building an AWS equivalent?

Years of experience running their own massive platform before entering the market of renting those services to others?

> they can definitely build software

So can OVH and Rackspace. So why would this project take off better than those established companies?

Don't get me wrong, I'll be cheering this to succeed, but how is this effort different?

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by sitkack on Friday June 05, 2020 @09:09AM (#23428059)
Cern has more than enough folks that have run systems that are harder to run cloud scale compute.

Even if running a DC is rocket science (it isn't), it is no particle physics.

The EU should absolutely have its own homegrown tech stack, from silicon to billing. I'd start with an EU run internet backbone and federated object storage in each member state.

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by viraptor on Friday June 05, 2020 @09:20AM (#23428157)
CERN still runs on openstack for the non-specialised projects, I believe. They do improve the project, but it's not their own solution.

I can't see Gaia-x mentioning a ready solution anywhere and it seems very secret and proprietary for a project that's meant to be transparent, federated, and lunching end of this year. (Unless I missed something?)

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by guiriduro on Friday June 05, 2020 @11:47AM (#23429866)
If I rememberm AWS CTO is dutch. Throw €100bn in a tech fund and poach him or someone like him, give them free reign, done. Poverty of imagination and obsessive financial conservatism and control freakery from the euro investment community is the real problem, not lack of talent.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by joelbluminator on Friday June 05, 2020 @03:49PM (#23433093)
I'd be surprised if a decent AWS equivalent can't be built in 10-15B. That should be enough to hire good people and buy infrastructure. How do you figure 100B? It doesn't have to serve AWS traffic from day one...
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by ur-whale on Friday June 05, 2020 @09:48AM (#23428466)
> What's stopping EU from building an AWS equivalent?

1. Culture, tradition, apathy, risk-averseness

2. Regulations

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by joelbluminator on Friday June 05, 2020 @10:28AM (#23428953)
So you're saying building an AWS equivalent is harder to do than building ASML? Again: if Europe could come up with ASML (which is just an example I'm familiar with, I assume there are successful companies), why can't it build in AWS equivalent? Which is even easier to do since the problem of scaling server instances is better understood and more intuitive than developing lithography machines like ASML is doing.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by afr0ck on Friday June 05, 2020 @11:09AM (#23429419)
You should really reconsider your assumptions about server scaling and AWS business in general. AWS builds truely complex and ahead-of-time distributed systems that humans could never build before because of lack of knowledge and concentrated efforts. Distributed systems are really hard and not very well understood and algorithms are immensly complex and even harder to to engineer espeically on AWS scale. See DynamoDB for example, it's a masterpiece of engineering in distributed systems. You can read the paper entitled "Dynamo: Amazon's Highly Available Key-Value Store" to get a real feel of the challenge. I consider the way you see things as another part of Europs failure to build software quality awareness that can compete with the US engineering.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by joelbluminator on Friday June 05, 2020 @11:44AM (#23429834)
The main business in AWS is not DynamoDB. I'm not even sure what it is without checking, and seems like people hosting on Google / Microsoft / other big corp can do without. Nor does Europe need to copy 100% of AWS's feature set.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by CountSessine on Friday June 05, 2020 @12:39PM (#23430469)
And ASML has competition as well in Canon and Nikon, although they’re ahead of them in EUV.

Are you an EE? Or a Physicist? I’m wondering why you’ve shrouded ASML in such a golden halo? They’re a company doing basic research in solid state physics, but there are a lot of companies like that.

And the issue here isn’t EU vs US - it’s private vs public industry. ASML is a private company that was spun off of Siemens. Building any kind of a successful venture that actual produces real value is hard - private and public. But public ventures have more money and can’t weed out failures as aggressively as the tough justice of the market.

We’ll have to see how this Gaia-X turns out, but I’m not optimistic.

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by joelbluminator on Friday June 05, 2020 @02:20PM (#23431923)
ASML is just an example of a complicated, competitive, hi-tech leading company coming from Europe. None of the competitors you listed are on par with ASML at the moment as you said. So we've established Europe can actually make tech critical competitive products (sorry for being hung up on ASML, I live in the Netherlands so that example comes to mind)

As for the government vs private venture, I cannot say it's set in stone. China is developing crazy ass infrastructure and companies, all very techy, and none of it is free market. So we've had bad precedents like USSR but also contradicting successful examples like China.

Also - Europe doesn't have to make Gaia-X BETTER than AWS. It doesn't have to become a 1T dollar market cap company. It just needs to do it's job and reduce reliance on China and U.S , that is the whole goal.

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by CountSessine on Saturday June 06, 2020 @03:56PM (#23441815)
and companies, all very techy, and none of it is free market

Whoa - sorry but that just isn’t true. Other than Huawei which is a Trojan horse for Chinese intelligence services, none of the dynamism in the Chinese economy is happening in state owned companies. NONE! Look at Tencent or Alibaba or Xiaomi or DJI or any of the big Chinese tech leaders. Or look at SMIC - they guys ASML we’re going to make that big sale to! NONE of these are state owned firms. If you seriously think that any of what’s happening now in China is any kind of a counterpoint to the abject failure of the planned economy, I can’t help you.

Maybe Gaia-X will be a success - but it is as I said - making a successful venture is always against the odds. But private industry will realize that sooner and waste less capital on failures. Public funding takes years past clear failure to turn off the money spigot. Good luck!

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by orf on Friday June 05, 2020 @12:37PM (#23430434)
I’m pretty sure that under the hood a lot of AWS services like S3 are backed by dynodb, and if so then ‘chopping up and selling dynodb’ is a pretty core focus.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by ur-whale on Friday June 05, 2020 @03:45PM (#23433035)
ASML is a tiny company compared to AMZN.

They are also the _one_ exception where a European company produces tech that's number one worldwide and near impossible to match.

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by joelbluminator on Friday June 05, 2020 @03:50PM (#23433112)
You're comparing to Amazon the company, the whole e-commerce business unit which is huge. AWS is big but I don't know how big; competition is fierce. They were there first but other companies are catching up.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by raverbashing on Saturday June 06, 2020 @05:18AM (#23437806)
Here's some food for thought, what stopped the US from building AWS before AWS came to be?

And quite funnily, the first public AWS service wasn't S3 or EC2, it was: SQS (according to Wikipedia) in 2004

I would add a number 0. to your list: Vision, and then they would be in order of importance

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by barrenko on Friday June 05, 2020 @10:03AM (#23428646)
Those systems and any other functioning and innovative system will be by definition built bottom-up and not top-down which the EU will never figure out and always actively discourage.