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Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by mathieuh on Thursday June 04, 2020 @05:53AM (#23414605)
I like Zizek's take on postmodernism and how it relates to authority.

> Instead of bringing freedom, the fall of the oppressive authority thus gives rise to new and more severe prohibitions. How are we to account for this paradox? Think of the situation known to most of us from our youth: the unfortunate child who, on Sunday afternoon, has to visit his grandmother instead of being allowed to play with friends. The old-fashioned authoritarian father’s message to the reluctant boy would have been: “I don’t care how you feel. Just do your duty, go to grandmother and behave there properly!” In this case, the child’s predicament is not bad at all: although forced to do something he clearly doesn’t want to, he will retain his inner freedom and the ability to (later) rebel against the paternal authority. Much more tricky would have been the message of a “postmodern” non-authoritarian father: “You know how much your grandmother loves you! But, nonetheless, I do not want to force you to visit her – go there only if you really want to!” Every child who is not stupid (and as a rule they are definitely not stupid) will immediately recognize the trap of this permissive attitude: beneath the appearance of a free choice there is an even more oppressive demand than the one formulated by the traditional authoritarian father, namely an implicit injunction not only to visit the grandmother, but to do it voluntarily, out of the child’s own free will. Such a false free choice is the obscene superego injunction: it deprives the child even of his inner freedom, ordering him not only what to do, but what to want to do.

Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by dang on Thursday June 04, 2020 @06:01AM (#23414655)
That's amusingly written and I agree with it, but how is the second father, the non-authoritarian one, being postmodern, exactly? Zizek is the postmodernist here—he's the one offering a postmodern analysis. More precisely, this is pure Foucault: power that forces physical compliance is lesser, while power that reforms your own relationship to yourself is more insidious. Zizek just describes it with a more earthy example than Foucault ever would. Real postmodernists don't do earthy.
Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by ldeangelis on Thursday June 04, 2020 @06:08AM (#23414696)
That's a really good analysis. I never really though about it that way.
Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by JacksonGariety on Thursday June 04, 2020 @06:55AM (#23414970)
Keep in mind that Zizek has placed the word 'postmodern' in heavy scare quotes here. When I read this passage (it's from Ticklish Subject, I think?) I understand Zizek to be critiquing the pseudo-permissiveness of neoliberalism rather than French theory. (Zizek is a hardcore Lacanian, after all.)
Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by WJW on Thursday June 04, 2020 @05:58AM (#23414639)
Pretty interesting! Where is this quote from? I'd like to read the surrounding text as well if it contains the same level of insight.
Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by mathieuh on Thursday June 04, 2020 @06:02AM (#23414660)
I'm not 100% sure, I saw him talk about it in a YouTube video a while ago, the name of which I can't recall.

I typed some keywords into Google and found the full quotation here: https://www.lacan.com/essays/?p=184, but I'm not sure if he expands on it further in any of his books.

Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by not_a_moth on Thursday June 04, 2020 @06:16AM (#23414740)
He brings it up in this interview about his book "The Puppet and the Dwarf". I remember this clip from years ago because the interview is such a wild contrast of headspaces! https://youtu.be/KjEtmZZvGZA
Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by m0zg on Thursday June 04, 2020 @06:05AM (#23414674)
As a father of a 16 year old young man, given a choice, even a "false" choice like this, he simply won't do shit. And that's _bad_, since when he grows up not doing shit won't be an option conducive to putting food on the table or providing for his family. Frankly I wish I were more authoritarian when he was younger. I bought into the "modern" parenting hook line and sinker early on, and in retrospect it could have ruined my child's prospects in life. And now it's too late to fix it - the kid has a work ethic of an inebriated sloth and only does what he wants and nothing else.
[deleted]
Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by dang on Thursday June 04, 2020 @06:52AM (#23414945)
If you've been through both sides of this, you understand that "inebriated sloth" is a term of high affection.
Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by brmgb on Thursday June 04, 2020 @06:55AM (#23414965)
Didn't see you had replied when I deleted (I thought my comment to be somewhat devoid of interesting content).

For context, I was implying that calling your teenager an inebriated sloth would surely not help the relationship.

I believe you when you say it's a term of endearment.

I guess I'm just finding some of my own teenage relationship with my father in the original post. My father didn't particularly approve or value how I spent my time and authority was a conflictual subject between us. Our relationship is still somewhat fifteen years later.

Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by m0zg on Thursday June 04, 2020 @07:01AM (#23415008)
I of course don't call him that to his face, although I do tell him frequently that unless he changes his ways he'll be living under a bridge in a few years (proverbial, obviously), and getting out of the hole is much harder than never going into it in the first place. At times it even seems that he understands, but the moment I look away, he fires up the browser and fires up YouTube. Congratulations YouTube, I guess? Excellent "engagement", give that researcher a bonus! I'm sick and tired of this already, so I think I'll just let him attend the school of hard knocks instead.

It's sad though. In a way, being sheltered from adversity has severely undermined his future potential. For what it's worth my father made me do things, and always reminded me that unless I get proper education I'll be shoveling shit on a farm for the rest of my life. I grew up in rural Russia, so this was the default state, which several of my high school friends entered, permanently.

I, on the other hand, gave my kid everything and sheltered him from everything, and undermined his future by doing so.

Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by 082349872349872 on Thursday June 04, 2020 @07:23AM (#23415173)
You are not alone: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcdXczfIFl9pOHZRCKCss_g/vid... has a lot of rants about raising kids in the US. (so many that I can't find the one I originally watched)
Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by dang on Thursday June 04, 2020 @06:58AM (#23414989)
But venting about it to sympathetic listeners probably would.

No problem re deletion - sometimes the uninteresting things are more interesting than the interesting ones!

Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by afiori on Thursday June 04, 2020 @06:33AM (#23414837)
In a sense I am exactly in your son position (even if quite older already) I don't really have to blame my parents, but sure as hell I did everything I could to avoid learning any discipline and now I am paying for it in predictable ways.

As often happen Scott Alexander has written a nice article on the topic; in this case it is a review of a Chinese-American mother that lives the Chinese education system through a western lens and comes to like some of the differences.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/01/22/book-review-review-lit...

Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by adwn on Thursday June 04, 2020 @06:57AM (#23414977)
As with all articles on SSC, the comments are also very much worth reading.

In addition, one should keep in mind that there are ways to instill some discipline and self-control into one's children that don't turn them into mindless little automatons (as the Chinese school in the reviewed book tries to do).

Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by m0zg on Thursday June 04, 2020 @11:52PM (#23424924)
Admitting you have a problem is the first, necessary step to solving it, so kudos to you - better late than never. A lot of people go through their entire lives without realizing they have a problem in the first place.
Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by dang on Thursday June 04, 2020 @06:23AM (#23414778)
He'll come around.
[dead]
Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by m0zg on Thursday June 04, 2020 @07:09AM (#23415059)
> putting food on the table or providing for a family, to be their life's calling

Sure it's not anyone's "life's calling". What it is is a _baseline requirement_ without fulfilling which you can't really pursue higher calling of any kind in a meaningful way.

Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by alexashka on Thursday June 04, 2020 @07:44AM (#23415332)
There is no baseline requirement.

It is only the worker ants that can't comprehend that there can be other ways to meaningfully live this life.

Have you not heard of monks? Have you not heard of travelling musicians? Maybe not, maybe you don't get it, but I can assure you, a higher calling has nothing to do with resources and many of those who do find meaning in working, will be happy to break bread with a travelling monk or hear a musician's tune and tale of adventure.

It's the many colors of the rainbow that make it beautiful. How awful it'd be if we all wanted to work, so that our children could work, so that their children could work, until we've populated this planet and sucked it dry, with our boring diligence.

Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by hoseja on Thursday June 04, 2020 @09:27AM (#23416262)
There is a prevailing sentiment on this site that I can only, for the lack of knowledge of a better term, call American evangelical-puritan. It's, in it's entirety only about getting money, getting more money and getting more efficient at getting more money. The holders of this sentiment seem to find it offensive to find pleasure in anything else than being the best worker ant this quarter they can possibly be. It's rather creepy to witness.
Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by m0zg on Thursday June 04, 2020 @04:00PM (#23421077)
I do find pleasure in not starving and having a roof over my head, that much is true. The rest of your post is so detached from reality I won't comment on it.
Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by hoseja on Friday June 05, 2020 @02:19AM (#23425593)
I really don't understand. Are you, on a daily basis, in a serious threat of losing your job, becoming homeless and immediately dying with all your family?
Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by adwn on Thursday June 04, 2020 @06:50AM (#23414937)
> It may shock you, but some people don't see putting food on the table [...] to be their life's calling.

It may shock you, but if you don't put food on your table, you're going to starve and die. Sure, you might rely on the charity of others to provide for you. But if you're mentally and physically able to contribute and be productive, but choose not to, then you're a parasite.

I won't comment on the rest of your post, since it's full of personal attacks, insults, and pure speculation about the another poster's character and motivations. Ironically, the opinions you articulate in your post have a somewhat postmodernist vibe to them.

Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by alexashka on Thursday June 04, 2020 @07:07AM (#23415042)
“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”

― Socrates

One day, fewer people will freely have children and maybe then this multi-thousand year cycle of brilliant parents complaining about their children's inadequacies will cease.

Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by froasty on Thursday June 04, 2020 @01:42PM (#23419509)
The quote isn't real. It's from a Cambridge dissertation in 1907 attributing these attitudes to the ancients. With that said, let's assume that Socrates did say something like this. What exactly happened to Athenian democracy in the generations after the death of Socrates?

"Athens, 404 BC. The Democratic city-state has been ravaged by a long and bloody war with neighbouring Sparta. The search for scapegoats begins and Athens, liberty's beacon in the ancient world, turns its sword on its own way of life. Civil war and much bloodshed ensue. Defining moments of Greek history, culture, politics, religion and identity are debated ferociously in Athenian board rooms, back streets and battlefields. By 323 BC, less than 100 years later, Athens and the rest of Greece, not to mention a large part of the known world, has come under the control of an absolute monarch, a master of self-publicity and a model for despots for millennia to come: 'megas alexandros', Alexander the Great."

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

https://phys.org/news/2009-10-athenians-history.html

Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by adwn on Thursday June 04, 2020 @07:14AM (#23415103)
Are you disputing that some children grow up to be lazier and less disciplined than their parents? No? Then how is that quote relevant? m0zg complained about their very own child, not about children in general.
Re:Postmodernism and Its Impact (2017) by zozbot234 on Thursday June 04, 2020 @07:09AM (#23415061)
Wait, now I'm confused. I thought it was Abraham Lincoln that said this, not Socrates.