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Re:Crew Dragon Docks with ISS by pfdietz on Sunday May 31, 2020 @01:46PM (#23371160)
Guidance systems are vastly less expensive now, and can take advantage of things like MEMs, fiber laser gyros, and GPS (and, of course, modern computing power).

The tanks on Falcon are welded using Friction Stir Welding, which was invented in the early 1990s.

The landing algorithm for the first stage uses convex optimization algorithms based on interior point methods, which were not available in the 1960s.

However, something very much like an expendable F9 could probably have been built in the 1980s. Simply evolving the Saturn 1B (which was cheaper, per lb of payload to orbit, than the Saturn V) could have easily beaten the Shuttle's economic performance.

Re:Crew Dragon Docks with ISS by jes on Sunday May 31, 2020 @02:05PM (#23371328)
I had not heard of Friction Stir Welding previously. Video that demonstrates the technique is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNbQH8XBgxQ

Re:Crew Dragon Docks with ISS by 725686 on Sunday May 31, 2020 @05:00PM (#23372690)
Smarter Every Day has a very interesting video[1] inside the factory of United Launch Alliance in which, among a lot of other things, shows the friction stir welding used in their Atlas Rocket[2]:

[1] https://youtu.be/o0fG_lnVhHw

[2] https://youtu.be/o0fG_lnVhHw?t=1933

Re:Crew Dragon Docks with ISS by jes on Sunday May 31, 2020 @06:40PM (#23373561)
This is a great video. Thank you for sharing it.
Re:Crew Dragon Docks with ISS by redis_mlc on Sunday May 31, 2020 @07:56PM (#23374202)
The gimmick that Eclipse Aircraft (Paul Allen) used to get almost half a billion in investment is they would use FSW instead of rivets.

But that wasn't the main problem with creating a new jet, which has a myriad of other issues before certification.

Re:Crew Dragon Docks with ISS by LanceH on Sunday May 31, 2020 @02:55PM (#23371703)
I'm going to go with SpaceX doesn't have to source from 50 states. It also hasn't had its funding turned off and on.
Re:Crew Dragon Docks with ISS by pfdietz on Sunday May 31, 2020 @03:54PM (#23372167)
More generally, SpaceX doesn't have to pay the cost of crossing organizational boundaries. When that happens, unless the parts are standardized and commoditized, then requirements have to be formalized, contracts and costs negotiated. Time and again SpaceX found it was cheaper and faster to just do things themselves rather than buy from traditional aerospace contractors.
Re:Crew Dragon Docks with ISS by geomark on Sunday May 31, 2020 @08:22PM (#23374380)
"It also hasn't had its funding turned off and on."

That one's a killer. I was once a project manager at an aerospace company developing a new processor chipset for space applications. Our government customer would run out of money near the end of every fiscal year, forcing us to shut down. Then a few months later they would secure funds and ask us to restart. By then most of my staff would have been reassigned to other projects. It was stupidly inefficient and caused costs to balloon.

Re:Crew Dragon Docks with ISS by 7thaccount on Sunday May 31, 2020 @03:27PM (#23371950)
Yes, mass scale optimization software (CPLEX, GUROBI, XPRESS) is all pretty recent and has completely changed countless industries and saved billions of dollars.
Re:Crew Dragon Docks with ISS by dna_polymerase on Sunday May 31, 2020 @05:18PM (#23372820)
One dimension to this that is often forgotten is that SpaceX does things, though. Of course, many problems are solvable now that everything is more advanced, but putting them to use and creating actual progress for humanity is the real fantastic feat of SpaceX.
Re:Crew Dragon Docks with ISS by chasd00 on Sunday May 31, 2020 @07:48PM (#23374135)
yeah, ideas and algorithms are a dime a dozen. turning them into reality is the hard part.
Re:Crew Dragon Docks with ISS by azernik on Sunday May 31, 2020 @06:56PM (#23373699)
Not to mention CFD modeling - the F1 engines' combustion stability took enormous amount of iterative development and exploding test articles to get right, whereas new engine designs are much closer to working when the first prototypes roll out.
Re:Crew Dragon Docks with ISS by kbenson on Sunday May 31, 2020 @05:10PM (#23372760)
> Simply evolving the Saturn 1B (which was cheaper, per lb of payload to orbit, than the Saturn V) could have easily beaten the Shuttle's economic performance.

I don't know how much it applies, but sometimes evolving something requires switching out components for other ones, which are more expensive. Not everything scales. Marketing isn't the only reason why 50% more capability often costs 100% more. I imagine with rocketry, you're often operating at the edge of the capability for certain materials and approaches.

Re:Crew Dragon Docks with ISS by pfdietz on Sunday May 31, 2020 @05:42PM (#23373023)
We have an example of a better component, that is otherwise very similar: the first stage engines of the Saturn IB and the Falcon 9:

H-1: https://en.wikpedia.org/wiki/Rocketdyne_H-1

Merlin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_Merlin

The Merlin has considerably higher specific impulse and thrust/weight ratios. It also has very fast throttling, a necessity for vertical landing. And, it's remarkably cheap (less than $1M per engine). I don't have the figure for the inflation-adjusted cost of the H-1, but I suspect it was much more expensive.

Re:Crew Dragon Docks with ISS by mcpherrinm on Monday June 01, 2020 @03:51AM (#23376207)
There is a typo in the H-1 link It should be: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocketdyne_H-1
Re:Crew Dragon Docks with ISS by barbegal on Sunday May 31, 2020 @04:57PM (#23372667)
> The landing algorithm for the first stage uses convex optimization algorithms based on interior point methods, which were not available in the 1960s.

Is this level of optimisation really needed? I thought most of the landing was having enough fuel margin and then running a PID control algorithm during the landing burn.

Re:Crew Dragon Docks with ISS by pfdietz on Sunday May 31, 2020 @06:11PM (#23373265)
Apparently yes. See Lars Blackmore's chapter in the 2016 "Frontiers of Engineering" (National Academy Press) (free registration required)

https://www.nap.edu/read/23659/chapter/10

https://www.nap.edu/download/23659

"SpaceX uses CVXGEN (Mattingley and Boyd 2012) to generate customized flight code, which enables very high-speed onboard convex optimization."

This is actually a great example of a true NASA spinoff, btw. Lars Blackmore was at JPL before moving to SpaceX. Landing on Mars and landing a first stage back on Earth aren't the same problem, but they're close enough for the work to transfer.

Re:Crew Dragon Docks with ISS by usrusr on Sunday May 31, 2020 @05:53PM (#23373121)
I believe that the biggest obstacle in SpaceX's "hover slam" landing isn't calculating and controlling the burn but getting sufficiently precise input in time for those calculations. It must be a miracle of sensor fusion.
Re:Crew Dragon Docks with ISS by mulmen on Sunday May 31, 2020 @06:22PM (#23373388)
We had something like an expendable F9 in the 1980s. It’s called Atlas. We used it to launch GPS. We used it during the Shuttle era and we still use it.