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Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by yongjik on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:17PM (#23356194)
Hmm really? My experience is that, with k8s I end up learning all the complexities of k8s in addition to AWS.

Besides, personally I find AWS console much easier to understand. I don't get why people hate it.

Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by frompdx on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:29PM (#23356327)
> I don't get why people hate it.

Because it is hard to manage the configuration. It's why tools like terraform exist.

Anecdote. I worked for a small company that was later acquired. It turned out one of the long time employees had set up the company's AWS account using his own Amazon account. Bad on it's own. We built out the infra in AWS. A lot of it was "click-ops". There was no configuration management. Not even CloudFormation (which is not all that great in my opinion). Acquiring company realizes mistake after the fact. Asks employee to turn over account. Employee declines. Acquiring company bites the bullet and shells out a five figure sum to employee to "buy" his account. Could have been avoided with some form of config management.

Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by bsder on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:52PM (#23356536)
> Acquiring company realizes mistake after the fact. Asks employee to turn over account. Employee declines. Acquiring company bites the bullet and shells out a five figure sum to employee to "buy" his account. Could have been avoided with some form of config management.

That is completely the wrong lesson from this anecdote.

1) The acquiring company didn't do proper due diligence. Sorry, this is diligence 101--where are the accounts and who has the keys?

2) Click-Ops is FINE. In a startup, you do what you need now and the future can go to hell because the company may be bankrupt tomorrow. You fix your infra when you need to in a startup.

3) Long-time employee seemed to have exactly the right amount of paranoia regarding his bosses. The fact that the buyout appears to have killed his job and paid so little that he was willing to torch his reputation and risk legal action for merely five figures says something.

Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by tly_alex on Saturday May 30, 2020 @01:13AM (#23358653)
Make sense. This is a classic example of bad operation management leads to unexpected outcome. Could have be solved much easier with proper configuration management.
Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by cmckn on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:36PM (#23356398)
Sounds like the exact nightmare a previous employer was living. AWS' (awful) web UI convinces the faint of heart to click through wizards for everything. If you're not using version control for _anything_ related to your infrastructure...you have my thoughts and prayers.

+1 for "click-ops", perfectly put.

Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by frompdx on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:40PM (#23356438)
> you have my thoughts and prayers.

Pretty much. The lesson learned for me was to always have version control for the complete stack including the infra for the stack. I like terraform for this. Terragrunt at least solves the issue of modules for terraform reducing the verbosity. Assume things could go wrong and you will need to redeploy EVERYTHING. I've been there.

Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by valuearb on Friday May 29, 2020 @09:57PM (#23357792)
Only 5 figures? That’s only what, a 100 hours of consulting?

Sounds like the tiniest acquisition mistake I’ve ever heard of.

Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by lonelappde on Friday May 29, 2020 @09:31PM (#23357641)
Why not just migrate the resources?

Spin up new instances, load data from snapshots, get back to work.

Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by tly_alex on Saturday May 30, 2020 @01:15AM (#23358659)
Migration on resources taking live traffic is not an easy thing. Before migrating the traffic over to a different end-point, the time and the engineering work to make sure the new endpoints works is money and cost. Also there could be statefull data in the original account and to do a live migration of data with new data coming in at X tps is absolutely hard work.
Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by tcgv on Saturday May 30, 2020 @12:53AM (#23358583)
Probably because paying 5 figures to the account owner was cheaper, faster and safer than recreating the production env from scratch
Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by dragonwriter on Friday May 29, 2020 @10:14PM (#23357875)
> Besides, personally I find AWS console much easier to understand. I don't get why people hate it.

The console is fine as a learning tool for deployment/management, and for occasional experimentation, monitoring, and troubleshooting, but any IaC tool is vastly more manageable for non-toy deployments where you need repeatability and consistency and/or the ability to manage more than a very small number of resources.

Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by shiftpgdn on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:59PM (#23356589)
AWS console is very carefully designed to let you create traps that result in spending huge buckets of money if you're not paying attention.
Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by Aeolun on Friday May 29, 2020 @09:41PM (#23357708)
EC2 instances are fairly predictable.
Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by verdverm on Friday May 29, 2020 @11:31PM (#23358247)
And when they fail (especially when the underlying hardware fails... Does AWS live migrate your workloads with zero downtime like Google?
Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by ec109685 on Saturday May 30, 2020 @12:56AM (#23358596)
Google can’t migrate if the underlying hardware fails quick enough.

I don’t think AWS has talked about live migrate, but given stability of their VMs and rareness of “we need to restart it notices”, it seems like they have something.

Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by verdverm on Saturday May 30, 2020 @06:52AM (#23360199)
I've "experienced" a hard drive failure on both platforms.

On AWS, I was getting pagerduty'd because the solo gateway box was down, we couldn't ssh in so after an hour of no progress with dubugging or support, we just hit the reset button and hoped for the best. Fortunately this worked and later we where told there has a disk failure.

On GCP, I didn't even know and only discovered it in the logs when I was looking for other audit reasons. Turns out your long-running google VMs are being migrated all of the time and you had no idea. They actually have a policy / SLA around it, basically saying they refresh their entire fleet of servers every 6 weeks iirc. Honestly, if AWS is not doing something like this, I'd have increased concerns about leaky security neighbors (i.e. someone who has a VM running for multiple years without software updates. Hopefully you should be protected on shared servers, but it is software afterall)

Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by ec109685 on Sunday May 31, 2020 @12:50AM (#23367275)
Right, both vendors need to keep the underlying hypervisor and physical host up to date.
Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by shiftpgdn on Saturday May 30, 2020 @12:11AM (#23358404)
If you're only using EC2 you're overspending by a factor of 5-10. Compute is cheap.
Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by tly_alex on Saturday May 30, 2020 @01:17AM (#23358667)
Console is suppose to just be a web UI to quickly make a change or explore the feature. Any high quality engineering team should avoid make changes through console because it's not testable and repeatable. For code change, use codedeploy or container through ECS. For configuration and infrastructure changes, CloudFormation should be the right tool.
Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by verdverm on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:31PM (#23356343)
How do you view all the VMs in a project across the globe at the same time?

Do you need to manage keys when ssh'n into a VM?

Do you know what the purpose of all the products are? If you don't know one, are you able to at least have an idea what it's for without going to documentation?

The have also directly opposed many efforts for Kubernetes, even to their own customers, until they realized they couldn't win. Only then did they cave, and they are really doing the bare minimum. The most significant contribution to OSS they have made was a big middle finger to Elastic search...

Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by yongjik on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:44PM (#23356488)
Of course everyone's experience is different, but in my case...

> How do you view all the VMs in a project across the globe at the same time?

I'm not sure what it's got to do with k8s? I can't see jobs that belong to different k8s clusters at the same time, either.

> Do you need to manage keys when ssh'n into a VM?

Well, in k8s everybody who has access to the cluster can "ssh" into each pod as root and do whatever they want, or at least that's how I've seen it, but I'm not sure it's an improvement.

> Do you know what the purpose of all the products are? If you don't know one, are you able to at least have an idea what it's for without going to documentation?

Man, if I got a dime every time someone asked "Does anyone know who owns this kubernetes job?", I'll have... hmm maybe a dollar or two...

Of course k8s can be properly managed, but IMHO, whether it is properly managed is orthogonal to whether it's k8s or vanilla AWS.

Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by kronin on Friday May 29, 2020 @09:28PM (#23357622)
If you're running pods as root, you're doing it wrong. That was a no-no with docker, and it's still a no-no for kubernetes. People still run non-containerized services as root too...
Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by yongjik on Friday May 29, 2020 @09:46PM (#23357732)
This is getting off-topic, but I didn't understand the rationale behind that. Processes running inside docker/k8s are already isolated, so unless you're running something potentially malicious, why would it matter if it's root or not?

(Of course, if you're running untrusted user code, then you'll need every protection you can muster, but I'm talking about running an internally developed application. If you can't trust that, you already have a bigger problem.)

Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by kronin on Friday May 29, 2020 @10:10PM (#23357859)
If the container is running as root, and you escape the container, you are root on the host.

Containers share the kernel with the host, and are only as isolated as the uid the process in the container runs as and the privileges you grant that container.

Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by verdverm on Friday May 29, 2020 @11:24PM (#23358208)
He doesn't seem to understand the new landscape well enough to make his comparisons.

The point about AWS was not a Kubernetes comparison. It was a GCP one, because you asked what was wrong with the God aweful AWS

Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by collyw on Sunday May 31, 2020 @05:15AM (#23368282)
Docker won't run on my local machine as non root. And all the stuff I have seen so far has been run as root.
Re:Why is Kubernetes getting so popular? by arejaytee on Friday May 29, 2020 @07:09PM (#23356660)
Beleive they were referring to AWS not k8