News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by tombert on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @11:39PM (#23333138)
Maybe someone here can explain it better to me; why was silverlight a thing?

Flash had its problems, but why would anyone instead use another proprietary system that works on fewer platforms?

Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by SllX on Thursday May 28, 2020 @12:30AM (#23333412)
Under Ballmer, Microsoft was very much under the impression of “if you build it, they will come”. Silverlight was released because Microsoft didn’t own Flash. Keep in mind this is pre- or maybe circa-iPhone and the canvas tag has only recently been trotted out as a WebKit feature, mainly to support Dashboard on Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger. YouTube was still brand new too, it wasn’t owned by Google yet, and Silverlight was going to be the basis for developing apps on some version of WinCE whose precise name and version number escapes me. To be honest most of my memories of Silverlight run together and primarily for two reasons: while I thought it was cool tech, there were very few sites which used it. I recall a Microsoft video site and almost nothing else. The second reason is Microsoft never fully committed it to any one application other than as web plug-in. I remember the bit about using it in some version of WinCE and I don’t remember if they ever tried to push it for desktop Windows at some point, but I think that was at least on the agenda at some point, with significant overlap with WPF.

I am struggling to remember actual Silverlight applications, the Playboy Archive, and I think the Library of Congress at some point offered part of its collection as a Silverlight application.

It was also a backdoorsy kind of way to limit cool new web applications to Windows. The Mac version was a feature laggard, when it did finally exist, and I don’t know if a Linux version was ever developed, but I’m pretty sure the answer was no for several years. Of course back then Mac and Linux support was considered irrelevant, and the idea of making a native app into a web app to support them wasn’t really taken seriously for a while either. Silverlight would have seen to that cross-platform future never coming to pass had Ballmer had his way, but well, a combination of market forces from iPhones, to HTML5, to Mozilla and eventually Google Chrome really kind of made something like Silverlight and eventually Adobe Flash moot. Flash at least had legacy applications and video streaming that kept it around, Silverlight had to bet on its own future and to a web surfer it just wasn’t different enough from Flash nor did it ever have the install-base of Flash.

Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by thayne on Thursday May 28, 2020 @12:57AM (#23333534)
> I am struggling to remember actual Silverlight applications

Also, Netflix. The fact that Netflix required silverlight caused much pain for Linux users.

Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by SllX on Thursday May 28, 2020 @12:59AM (#23333543)
You know, I was thinking it, but I kept thinking “no, that can’t be right. I must be remembering wrong, surely it was some other video service.”

I guess it was right. Also Netflix.

Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by luma on Thursday May 28, 2020 @02:46AM (#23334228)
IIRC Silverlight won a few deals for streaming media because it had the only semi-functional DRM solution available at the time.
Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by cobalt on Thursday May 28, 2020 @01:32AM (#23333734)
IIRC prime video also used it for a while. Both because of some msft developed streaming tech in silverlight
Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by realusername on Thursday May 28, 2020 @02:44AM (#23334215)
> I am struggling to remember actual Silverlight applications

I remember it being used for Roland Garros streaming and that's pretty much it, I don't think I ever encountered another website using it.

Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by lmkg on Thursday May 28, 2020 @12:00AM (#23333251)
The big advantage I could see is that it runs C#, which has broader application than ActionScript.

My impression is that Silverlight's whole packaging & delivery model was envisioned to be more wide-spread but didn't take off. Microsoft was thinking that you could write one program, and then easily package & distribute it as a web app (via Silverlight), or a Windows Phone app, or a native Windows app, or an Xbox app. But... Windows Phone died, Xbox never grew from a game platform into a home multimedia platform, and C# did not achieve popularity for user-facing desktop apps. Plus Microsoft churned Windows APIs a few times.

I could easily see an alternate present where Silverlight was more successful for a longer time, if the timing was different or if a few events broke a different way. But I doubt that alternate present is better than this one.

Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by cm2187 on Thursday May 28, 2020 @01:16AM (#23333630)
On C# not achieving popularity for desktop apps, I think the problem is rather the lack of new desktop apps rather than C#, all new development tends too be web based even for internal apps. The problem is still deployment. I think client side blazor has a potential for creating internal applications quickly with zero deployment required without havint to touch javascript.
Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by alkonaut on Thursday May 28, 2020 @02:18AM (#23334033)
Yeah if you look at business facing apps I think between the apps that can be web (so they will) and the apps that can't be C# because of perf (games etc) you have a pretty small selection left. That doesn't mean C# has failed in that niche, far from it. But it's not a very visible niche because it's not what consumers use. The use case is bespoke LOB/PoS/Internal apps. Just like VB.
Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by cm2187 on Thursday May 28, 2020 @03:55AM (#23334663)
I agree. But it's not a small segment. It's not very visible from the outside but the number of internal developers in large companies is huge. And it's a segment where they don't care so much about load time (intranet, no quick browsing) and where using the same language for front end and back end is appealing.
Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by muststopmyths on Thursday May 28, 2020 @12:20AM (#23333357)
Originally Silverlight was purely a web play.

With Windows Phone 7 they used it as a UI layer for just about 1 year, but Windows Phone 8 stopped using silverlight in favor of WinRT(~2011/12).

Xbox never supported silverlight as a development platform in any of its iterations.

You may be confusing the WinRT/UAP/UWP fiasco with silverlight.

Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by lostmsu on Thursday May 28, 2020 @12:25AM (#23333385)
In some sense they are all sides of the same fiasco, like Google's Allo and Duo.
Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by yellowapple on Thursday May 28, 2020 @12:57PM (#23339581)
> and C# did not achieve popularity for user-facing desktop apps.

It didn't? Because a lot of desktop apps I've used seem to use it, and lately it's even become a reasonable cross-platform option.

I know for sure it's pretty common for games; besides Unity, I know e.g. The Sims 3 (and maybe 4?) uses it pretty heavily (including for mods), as do some more recent games like Mount & Blade II: Bannerlord.

Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by regularfry on Thursday May 28, 2020 @02:56AM (#23334293)
Not just C#. IronRuby and IronPython both got subsumed into Silverlight, and a lot of work went into a dynamic language runtime layer to allow that to happen. That whole era was full of "could have been"s that ended up not being because someone lost on the Microsoft internal politics merry-go-round.
Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by thawaway1837 on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @11:42PM (#23333159)
Because there was no open source alternative, the web was a terrible app platform (and frankly it’s still not as good as Silverlight was a decade ago).

In an alternative universe where Silverlight, instead of Flash, had become the de facto standard before the iPhone, I suspect we would likely have moved onto something like OpenSilver instead of HTML5 as the backbone for web applications.

Flash was designed for tiny animations and somehow became an application platform. Sikverlight was actually designed as an application platform and it showed, in how much better it was.

Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by tasogare on Thursday May 28, 2020 @12:49AM (#23333501)
I totally agree. I’ve been mainly using the Silverlight-based SDK that powered Windows Phone, and the easiness to made an app with is still unmatched. The ability to make reusable components, complex layout (grids) and design without CSS enabled real productivity. Sure the web now got most of those things, a decade later...
Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by austincheney on Thursday May 28, 2020 @12:13AM (#23333316)
While Silverlight did a lot as a media platform the primary selling point from Microsoft was video. It played video very well in the browser. Silverlight is what powered Netflix a few years back, for example.
Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by plerpin on Thursday May 28, 2020 @01:46AM (#23333843)
It played DRM'd video very well. Silverlight had a robust DRM stack.
Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by j45 on Thursday May 28, 2020 @12:20AM (#23333353)
Microsoft likely wanted it's own runtime in the browser that wasn't Flash or a Java Applet.

The DirectX controls you could use in Internet Explorer were a thing for a while.

The most interesting thing for me about all of this remains that WebAssembly ultimately became one of, if not the first write once, deploy anywhere standard that the major browsers agreed on (after implementing their own versions of it in a reasonably similar way).

Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by alkonaut on Thursday May 28, 2020 @02:30AM (#23334120)
It was an answer to both java applets and Flash, which obviously were someone eleses technologies. Among other things, it supported a pretty good ui system with XAML and easier threading than ActionScript.

So if you desperately wanted to do the "render stuff client side to a canvas on the web using a good programming language" then Silverlight wasn't half bad. The programming model/layout/concurrency handling etc was every bit as good in 2005 as modern js/react is 15 years later, but the tooling was much better. Think of it as vb for the net. You could fire up your development environment and create a new interactive app and compile it to a single deployable file in minutes.

I used it quite a lot, but that was for things like internal apps. It was pretty good as a deployment model for e.g. a complicated dashboard on an intranet page.

Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by pvg on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @11:57PM (#23333237)
It worked on the same major platforms. One thing that probably extended its life somewhat was that it provided access to some Windows-specific DRM technologies on non-Windows platforms, not entirely unlike how Flash was once the most reliable cross-platform way to play video in a browser.
Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by thayne on Thursday May 28, 2020 @12:46AM (#23333483)
> It worked on the same major platforms

Not true. silverlight never supported linux, unless you count the mono-based moonlight, which was buggy and didn't support DRM, so didn't work for the most common sites that used silverlight (like Netflix). Flash, on the other hand, supported linux for a long time.

Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by pvg on Thursday May 28, 2020 @01:26AM (#23333696)
It's true because desktop linux was not a major platform. Windows 98/ME were a bigger desktop platform than Linux back then and Microsoft Silverlight didn't support them either. Because they were not major platforms.
Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by tasogare on Thursday May 28, 2020 @12:53AM (#23333521)
Linux, with its 2% users at best, is not a major desktop platform.
Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by thayne on Thursday May 28, 2020 @01:12AM (#23333600)
by that logic, (desktop) safari, edge, and IE are not currently major browsers. Assuming that your 2% figure is correct. 2% of everyone that uses the internet is still a lot of people. And considerable amount of effort and money are spent on developing the linux desktop.
Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by pedasmith on Thursday May 28, 2020 @01:02AM (#23333562)
There was a version created for the S60 (Nokia) platform!
Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by ShhhDontTell on Thursday May 28, 2020 @12:17AM (#23333342)
It gave the front end developer access to the native win32 API througb COM. That means you could effectively write a native app and deliver it over the web. Powerful but also malware-prone.
Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by Ididntdothis on Thursday May 28, 2020 @12:27AM (#23333393)
Really ? Maybe this was an option but I thought Silverlight was generally sandboxed. ActiveX could do native though
Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by rogihee on Thursday May 28, 2020 @02:19AM (#23334042)
Yup, really! I had a USB-to-Serial FTDI 232R with an actual device running in Silverlight back in 2012-ish. Just made a demo, but it worked.
Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by Ididntdothis on Thursday May 28, 2020 @09:47AM (#23337164)
Was that Silverlight on the desktop or in the browser? For a while Silverlight was the recommended desktop UI toolkit until it wasn’t a little later.
Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by ncmncm on Thursday May 28, 2020 @02:04AM (#23333948)
It was Embrace, Extend, Extinguish for the web.

But they made not even a token effort at cross-platform, so it was a walled garden. People had only just broken out of the last MS walled garden, and did not relish entering another.

Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by cm2187 on Thursday May 28, 2020 @01:11AM (#23333597)
Think web based enterprise applications, written in C#+XAML, without requiring a line of html or javascript.
Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by DaiPlusPlus on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @11:56PM (#23333228)
> why was silverlight a thing?

2005 was a strange place.

Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by dhosek on Thursday May 28, 2020 @12:16AM (#23333336)
2020 is stranger.
Re:OpenSilver is a modern, plugin-free, open-source reimplem... by Ididntdothis on Thursday May 28, 2020 @12:28AM (#23333405)
Sometime after Win8 release it was suddenly the recommended desktop dev platform. Until it wasn’t a while later and UWP came along.