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Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by phyzome on Sunday May 24, 2020 @08:58AM (#23291177)
Doctors often want to keep pneumonia patients "dry", that is, somewhat dehydrated. (That's maybe contributing to the kidney failure.) To what extent could this also be resulting in increased clotting?
Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by actualdc1 on Sunday May 24, 2020 @10:26AM (#23291741)
As someone who has been treating COVID patients since early April, my working theory has been that many if not most of the secondary disease processes (non-respiratory effects of the virus), and even to some extent the worsening of respiratory function, have been largely driven by micro-thrombotic disease. Delicate capillary beds, like the ones seen in the lungs and kidneys, are highly susceptible to becoming blocked in this sort of setting. When these small vessels get plugged up, end-organ dysfunction necessarily follows. The kidney won't work properly if the blood needing filtration can't reach the nephron (functional unit of the kidney).

I'm in large part guessing here based on clinical observation, but my feeling is that you can extend this logic to other syndromes that accompany COVID-19. For example, we often see worsening liver function in the setting of this illness (albeit delayed by a few days). This could be explained in a number of ways, one of which is by impaired perfusion within capillary beds in the liver. Further, there is a myocarditis-like picture we sometimes see as well that could be explained by direct viral infection or again by impaired perfusion of the cardiac muscle by small vessel clotting.

When the thrombotic disease progresses, you start to see a more macro version: think strokes and pulmonary emboli in patients who are otherwise low risk at baseline. Thus, there's some interpolation going on here.

Hope that makes some sense.

Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by mirimir on Sunday May 24, 2020 @01:09PM (#23292906)
Hey, it's great to see something from a professional !!!

A dear friend is dying of pancreatic cancer. And one of the key reasons that she's still alive was getting thrombosis under control. Initially with IV heparin, and now with Lovenox.

Are those commonly used for COVID patients? Or do they use oral anticoagulants?

Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by actualdc1 on Sunday May 24, 2020 @07:25PM (#23295864)
I'm sorry to hear about your friend. Unfortunately, cancer is one of the big predisposing factors for thromboembolic disease, so I'm glad to hear that controlling this issue has helped her along.

Based on our institutional protocol, hospitalized COVID-19 patients receive therapeutic dose Lovenox, Eliquis, or IV heparin.[1] Lovenox is the first line treatment, but is contraindicated in patients with, among others things, severely impaired renal function. If these patients are able to tolerate oral medications, they can be given Eliquis. If not, they’re typically put on IV heparin drips (and are subject to the uncomfortable and burdensome blood draws that come with them).

Typically, all of these patients are discharged on two weeks of Eliquis if there are no major contraindications. The thinking is that the risk of damage to the body by microthrombi doesn’t necessarily end just because the patient is stable enough to go home.

Of course, with all of these medications, preventing clotting has to be balanced with preventing bleeding. We’ve had to stay vigilant for things like GI bleeds and hemorrhagic strokes, as these things become more common when everyone in the hospital is being heavily anticoagulated.

[1] Therapeutic dosing in this case is higher than typical prophylactic dosing. In the case of Lovenox, it would be something like 40 mg twice a day for the therapeutic dose versus 40 mg once a day for the prophylactic dose, which is what would be used in non-COVID-19 patients to prevent thromboembolism.

Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by phyzome on Monday May 25, 2020 @09:38PM (#23306648)
Thank you, very helpful!

It's wild to see how much the thinking has changed on how this disease works.

Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by robbiep on Sunday May 24, 2020 @10:15AM (#23291654)
When we keep patients ‘dry’ in ICU we aim to keep their urine output at a level that indicates safe glomerular filtration rates.

ACE2 is expressed extensively in renal tissue, so the virus is transported there in the blood, infects cells, hijacks the cellular apparatus to replicate, and then explodes to cell to continue its march of death. So I think your speculation is a bit misplaced

Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by phyzome on Sunday May 24, 2020 @11:41AM (#23292281)
Ah, thanks!
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Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by tom_mellior on Sunday May 24, 2020 @09:28AM (#23291356)
Serious question: What motivation do you have for believing this, or at least for claiming to believe it?
Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by JoeAltmaier on Sunday May 24, 2020 @09:02AM (#23291200)
That seems untrue. Corona attacks almost every organ.
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Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by tom_mellior on Sunday May 24, 2020 @09:26AM (#23291335)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus_disease_2019: "Common symptoms include fever, cough, fatigue, shortness of breath, and loss of smell and taste.[6][7][13] While the majority of cases result in mild symptoms, some progress to acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) likely precipitated by a cytokine storm,[14] multi-organ failure, septic shock, and blood clots."
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Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by tom_mellior on Sunday May 24, 2020 @11:46AM (#23292316)
You said to check Wikipedia. I checked Wikipedia. Where did I lie?
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Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by tom_mellior on Sunday May 24, 2020 @03:32PM (#23293997)
The name of the disease comes from the similarity of the virus to another one that caused a respiratory illness. And from it initially seeming to be mainly a respiratory illness as well. Now more data has come in, and it looks to medical professionals like it's not purely respiratory. Looks like science in action to me.
Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by nickthemagicman on Sunday May 24, 2020 @04:35PM (#23294474)
No. That's so false it's shocking. The name of the virus comes from the fact that it is genetically a corona virus. There are 7 known corona viruses that affect humans and every single one of them are respiratory.

What ever data 'sources' you're reading are wrong.

Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by tom_mellior on Monday May 25, 2020 @09:10AM (#23300608)
Looks like I need to start quoting your posts since they tend to get flagged into oblivion.

> The name of the virus comes from the fact that it is genetically a corona virus.

This is a weird claim, since in the post above you specifically pointed out that its name contains "Severe Acute RESPIRATORY Syndrome", which yes, is a hint that it was thought to be respiratory. But four other human coronaviruses don't have "respiratory" in their name. It's not like coronaviruses automatically get that name.

> There are 7 known corona viruses that affect humans and every single one of them are respiratory.

This is true, but I don't think that means that they are "not allowed" to have symptoms that are outside the lungs. The table in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus#Infection_in_human... lists diarrhea as a fairly frequent symptom of MERS (26%) and SARS-1 (20-25%). As a molecular biologist you will know more about this than I do, but it looks to me like these respiratory viruses can affect different parts of the body. That is also how it looks to medical professionals in the field, as discussed in the featured article.

> What ever data 'sources' you're reading are wrong.

You had plenty of opportunities in this thread to post your own sources. I think the only time you even referred to a source was to the Wikipedia page which I quoted back at you, which made you sad.

Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by JoeAltmaier on Sunday May 24, 2020 @09:19AM (#23291297)
I gotta think this is a bot or troll response? So obviously wrong and argumentative.
Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by ak39 on Sunday May 24, 2020 @11:23AM (#23292136)
It's very frustrating to read strong views without the views being substantiated. I know it's unrealistic to ask everyone commenting in such threads to prefix their commentary with "IAD" or "IANAD" (I am a medical doctor or I am not a medical doctor) but without such "qualifications" people like me (not a doctor) are left with little to go by.
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Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by JoeAltmaier on Sunday May 24, 2020 @11:42AM (#23292289)
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200423/the-great-invader-h...

There you go, 'son'. So, still obviously wrong and argumentative. Is this even a real account? Or just an insult-bot?

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Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by castis on Sunday May 24, 2020 @01:58PM (#23293255)
> The fact that people with your arrogance and your ignorance exist actually distresses me.

Weird, your account says you joined in 2012 but it seems like today might be your first day on the internet?

Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by DanBC on Sunday May 24, 2020 @11:14AM (#23292056)
> There's hundreds of coronavirus and they're all respiratory viruses.

How many coronaviruses can infect humans?

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Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by DanBC on Sunday May 24, 2020 @11:19AM (#23292094)
There are seven coronaviruses that infect humans.

229E, NL63, OC43, HKU1, MERS-CoV, SARS-CoV, and SARS-CoV-2.

You said "hundreds". What did you mean when you said hundreds?

Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by Supermancho on Sunday May 24, 2020 @02:14PM (#23293378)
When talking about viruses, it's a little more complicated than a label. Viruses naturally differentiate in a measurable way from host to host as part of their function (hijacking the host's cells). Scientifically, viruses are lumped into common behavior and generic similarities. Many individual variations do not propagate enough to be noticed, but some do. There was quite a bit of talk from some people about the 112 strains of coronavirus, which was not constructive, but technically correct (re: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/is-there-more-than...? etc) awhile back.
Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by nickthemagicman on Sunday May 24, 2020 @02:32PM (#23293518)
I've been rate limited by the site until now.

Of the 7 strains of Coronavirus that you just listed..which of those cause respiratory illness?

Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by DanBC on Sunday May 24, 2020 @07:36PM (#23295945)
They're all respiratory illnesses, but that doesn't mean the only affect the lungs.

MERS caused kidney failure in some patients.

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Re:Coronavirus: 'Baffling' observations from the front line by dang on Monday May 25, 2020 @04:54AM (#23299305)
We ban accounts that do personal attacks and flamewar, so please don't do those things on HN.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html