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Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by chroem- on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:03PM (#23275062)
What is the point of a privatised economy, when all these inefficient businesses are still subsidized by the state?
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by harryh on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:16PM (#23275191)
COVID19 represents an extraordinary circumstance where otherwise perfectly healthy businesses would fail due to revenue, quite literally, dropping to zero due to an external shock.

When businesses fail and employees are fired real value is destroyed: working relationships are severed & institutional knowledge lost.

It is in all of our interests to do what we can to preserve these businesses until the external shock ends.

Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by chroem- on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:20PM (#23275233)
Is it still an external shock if these supposedly healthy and rational businesses took on large amounts of debt to buy their own stock, and are now in trouble because they can't pay their bills?
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by TheSoftwareGuy on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:25PM (#23275279)
The coronavirus was not caused by rampant buy backs and borrowing. So yes
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by toomuchtodo on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:30PM (#23275346)
Ahh, but the buy backs and borrowing is what put over leveraged businesses into a precarious position where they were extremely vulnerable to economic shock. It didn't have to be a pandemic, it could've been any number of other events that caused a credit and demand shock.

Strip the equity, give the assets to someone who can properly manage the business.

Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by charlesu on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:47PM (#23275496)
Why should that matter? It's not like the businesses will evaporate. Equity will lose their shirts and we should let them.
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by thebean11 on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:24PM (#23275905)
Why don't they sell that stock back to the public to raise money for operating expenses? Because they'd have to sell it for much less than they paid a year ago?

I hate this idea that the taxpayer needs to subsidize risk for corporations. It creates a huge moral hazard where companies are incentivized to act as irresponsibly as possible. There are no consequences.

[dead]
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by tossmeout on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:40PM (#23275435)
You'd make your point more effectively using logic and reasoning rather than an emotional outburst. Otherwise, as a genuinely curious reader looking to learn from "both sides," your side comes across as motivated more by emotion than reasonable argument. Which is fine for preaching to the choir… but that's about it.
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by economicslol on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:11PM (#23275768)
Both sides? Do you make the same argument for hearing from literal Nazis? You just need to weigh the arguments for and against the final solution? I'm not directly calling Libertarians Nazis but the analogy holds, I find very little of value from their point of view. Generally Ayn Rand type libertarians are cash worshiping dragons of the Smaug variety. Their only real contribution to discourse is about the power of markets and I think we can discard them because belief in markets is not unique to them.
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by harryh on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:15PM (#23275811)
What do libertarians have to do with a central bank executing a massive increase in its balance sheet to execute a nearly unprecedented intervention into the national economy?

There are many words I might use to describe this policy. Libertarian is not one of them.

Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by harryh on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:20PM (#23275241)
Yes.
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by economicslol on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:29PM (#23275331)
They should have had an emergency fund of 6 Months of expenses for emergencies. Maybe they should stop eating so much avocado toast.
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by trcollinson on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:46PM (#23275490)
Brilliant analysis. Thank you for your insightful words.

In reality, there are very few economists who believe that a company should have 6 months of expenses in the bank for emergencies. I realize you are probably about to explain to me how those economists are wrong and companies are wasteful and whatnot. Frankly, they have their reasons and their reasons aren't do bad.

More importantly, most companies are not spending their money on frivolous things, like avocado toast. This isn't an HBO shocking sitcom/drama. Do companies make mistakes with their money, of course. But in my experience working with VC's, most companies are using all of their money on either marketing and sales, or R&D. Period. Maybe a bit on parties and morale but by percentage, 99% goes to sales and marketing or R&D. Large companies, on the other hand, spend their cash on all sorts of other things. Huge amounts of cash have still gone into sales and marketing, R&D, but also stock buy back, and investment.

Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by thephyber on Friday May 22, 2020 @04:26PM (#23276538)
> there are very few economists who believe that a company should have 6 months of expenses in the bank for emergencies

Economics is largely a study of game theory. When The Federal Reserve and Congress throw money at all companies, no matter the risk, doesn't this erode the future incentive for companies to be self-reliant and increase the expectation of similar monetary policy in the future?

Also, I read your comment's parent as if it was on The Colbert Report, dripping with sarcasm.

Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by harryh on Friday May 22, 2020 @04:38PM (#23276676)
It's not at all clear that we would want most companies to be self-reliant enough to weather a coronavirus level storm. That self reliance would come with a very high cost that probably isn't worth it.
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by economicslol on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:15PM (#23275813)
Was the avocado toast bit above your head or are you just generally oblivious to sarcasm?
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by dang on Friday May 22, 2020 @06:14PM (#23277678)
Would you please stop using HN for flamewar and ideological battle? It's tedious, predictable, and not what this site is for.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by justaguyhere on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:44PM (#23275472)
While everyone (biz or not) should have an emergency fund, this is not always possible. For example, restaurants - they already operate on razor thin margins, creating a 6 month emergency fund might not be that easy.

Plus, this virus is likely going to last more than six months - even if some businesses did have 6 month savings, what happens after?

Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by chroem- on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:51PM (#23275538)
None of those small, low-profit businesses are receiving benefit from this Federal reserve money.
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by harryh on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:54PM (#23275570)
Where do you think the money for PPP loans is coming from?
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by chroem- on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:00PM (#23275657)
The money may be coming from the Fed, but very little of it is going to small businesses. [1] What's more, PPP makes up a tiny fraction of the Fed's current coronavirus response.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com./2020/04/26/business/coronavirus-sma...

Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by harryh on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:49PM (#23275523)
Most companies could never afford to do this. They wouldn't cover their capital costs with their income for cash hoards of that size.
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by onetimemanytime on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:51PM (#23275546)
>>They should have had an emergency fund of 6 Months of expenses for emergencies.

Well, many /most don't. Now what do we do?

Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by thebean11 on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:20PM (#23275855)
Not sure I agree that every business needs 6 months of expenses, but what you do is let them fail, or raise capital from investors on terms that may not be so favorable to them (would dilute existing shareholders).

This would incentivize future companies to operate a bit more conservatively. The pattern of corporate irresponsibility followed by taxpayer-funded bailouts is a moral hazard.

Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by onetimemanytime on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:41PM (#23276056)
what about their employees?

Also, should we let people that have no 6-months reserve starve? Others will learn

Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by thebean11 on Friday May 22, 2020 @07:02PM (#23278065)
The employees should get unemployment benefits. We should take some of the money we use for corporate welfare and shift it to individual welfare until jobs come back.

On your second point, no we should not. Do you think it's hypocritical to give humans government benefits that companies don't get?

Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by bpodgursky on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:41PM (#23275440)
Big business: It's not actually good for the economy to have untold trillions in rainy-day payroll costs locked up in bonds or other safe funds. That money is best reinvested into the economy, through wages, growth, or whatever. Apples $200B or whatever cash stockpile wasn't doing useful work in safe bank.

Small business: Have you ever actually run a small business, or even known anyone who did? Do you understand how ridiculous it is to tell a local coffeeshop "Oh, just have six months of payroll and rent in a safe"? These business contribute a lot to communities, and telling them "oh, you don't deserve to exist unless you are capable of withstanding once-in-a-lifetime pandemics" is asinine.

Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by orhmeh09 on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:46PM (#23275483)
Yet this is the advice politicians, businesspeople, and landlords dole out to ordinary citizens in the face of not only threats like eviction but just their day-to-day immiseration...
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by trcollinson on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:56PM (#23275600)
Yes, ordinary citizens are different. What is your point? Are you suggesting companies really should keep 6 months of operating capital in the bank? Can you even imagine what would happen to the economy at that point.

The US GDP last year was $21 Trillion dollars. The gross revenue was about $2.1 Trillion dollars. This is all back of the envelope math but imagine if 50% of the difference between those numbers was the operating cost in the US of 6 months, or about $9.5 Trillion dollars. If we take that money out of the market and put it into a bank for a rain day fund, imagine all of the people not receiving that money. Imagine how many consumers would go down. This is all just an estimation but we are talking huge amounts of money not being put into the economy and frankly, our economy runs on consumption. Consumption doesn't happen without capital.

People should definitely safe. Have a 6 month personal supply. But companies need to spend.

Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by chroem- on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:14PM (#23275796)
> Are you suggesting companies really should keep 6 months of operating capital in the bank?

That's exactly what we're suggesting. Rather than going through this whole song and dance at least once a decade where the public has to bail out private business ventures, those private businesses should be able to fend for themselves against regular economic disruptions. This bailout and QE money isn't free and it comes with costs of its own. It would be better for the stability of the whole system if these companies could fund their own operations the next time there is a disruption.

Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by harryh on Friday May 22, 2020 @04:12PM (#23276405)
What makes you think that the costs that trcollinson describes would be worth the benefit of "the stability of the whole system if these companies could fund their own operations the next time there is a disruption"?
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by economicslol on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:02PM (#23275677)
You're right, the better solution is use taxpayer to bail out shitty companies that can't survive temporary economic slowdowns.
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by trcollinson on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:15PM (#23275802)
You seem like you are trolling and trolls aren't well loved here but I will attempt to answer your rather flippant and not useful comment with something somewhat useful.

Companies and the economy cannot handle having a 6 month reserve of cash, that is the assumption and there are plenty of economic theories that show that doesn't work.

Bailing out with taxpayer dollars is one solution and it's the easiest dial to turn. It will bail out a lot of companies that aren't "shitty" and are just handling a time that is unprecedented and needs to be handled. As with most things, it will also bail out some "shitty" companies. We don't have a great metric for "shitty" vs "non-shitty". Those taxpayer dollars to companies are not free (though with inflation they basically are free). They have to be paid back with a minor amount of interest over a 2 year period. Will everyone pay it back? Nope. But many will.

The point to remember here is this is unprecedented and we are attempting to solve a future problem. Let's imagine we don't bail anyone out with very cheap loans. A bunch of "shitty" companies go out of business. A WHOLE bunch of "non-shitty" businesses go out of business. When the world opens up again the people who have lost their job have no where to go. There are no "shitty" or "non-shitty" companies to go back to. They went out of business. Unemployment stays at record highs for as long as is necessary for new companies, both "shitty" and "non-shitty" to come back and start hiring. A bailout allows companies to hang on and then bring back employees ASAP after the virus situation stabilizes.

Are there better ways? Probably. Will be find them? Probably. We can learn from this situation and become better. It will require a set of new methods and economic tools to get through in the future.

Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by chroem- on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:29PM (#23275947)
Your argument is founded on the idea that this is an extraordinary event, but this is clearly becoming a recurring pattern due to the increasingly risky and fragile way businesses are operated. If this were 2008, I might agree with you, but we are starting to form a trend here. We'll have yet another round of public-private wealth transfers for the "absolutely unprecedented" 2031 US earthquake.
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by trcollinson on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:37PM (#23276014)
I think this is important. You are right this has happened before. 2008/09, 2000, 1987, twice in the 1970's. And history will no doubt repeat itself.

But my point is the way our economy currently works doesn't handle a 6 month reserve well. We don't incentive companies to hold on to cash like that. We need to come up with the incentive to do something different, whether it is save cash or "something else". But right now, the incentive is to spend cash and allow for a bailout.

Additionally, we don't think in the future very much. We think about this quarters earnings. So again, we need to incentive long term thinking and resiliency as you suggest. Unfortunately, I am not sure how to do that.

Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by mindslight on Friday May 22, 2020 @04:37PM (#23276657)
> We don't incentive companies to hold on to cash like that. We need to come up with the incentive to do something different

This isn't some novel problem that we don't understand, but rather the direct result of decades of economic policy. The solution is called raising interest rates.

Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by trcollinson on Friday May 22, 2020 @04:55PM (#23276890)
First off, I don't disagree. But I unfortunately think a lot of people will disagree, especially right now. If we increase the interest rate we know exactly what will happen. We will see a decrease in economic growth and spending. Stocks will slow down. Obviously at the same time inflation decreases.

The problem is we do know we need to increase the interest rate. But no one wants to do that now. "We're in a bad economic time and we need rapid growth! We'll raise it later." Later comes and we say "We can't do it now! We're growing! That will slow things down. We'll raise it later." No one wants to bite the bullet and do that. Again, we need to think long term and not so short term. I don't know how to solve that.

Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by mindslight on Friday May 22, 2020 @07:57PM (#23278480)
I agree that it's currently a terrible time to raise interest rates, although any time over the past decade would have been nice. A year ago they even started to go up a little, but were nipped in the bud well before COVID. Had to keep that Line going up!

Politically what needs to happen is that everybody who is not Wall Street or the 1% needs to realize that ZIRP is a direct attack on their economic power, to benefit the central government/bankers who dole out the piles of the newly printed money. Obviously discussion of this remains well outside the Overton Window of mass media.

Given how ever-increasing government debt itself discourages rates going up, the buy in of the middle class (retirement number gets bigger, so it is good), and how deftly the fake political duopoly divides the plebs even as they know they're being had (here we go again with dueling "presidential" dumpster fires!) I doubt this will happen any time soon. And so what will happen is eventual societal and currency collapse, either when the foreign markets route around USD or when the People finally reach our breaking point. I just hope it happens slow enough to be less of a catastrophe.

Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by harryh on Friday May 22, 2020 @08:51PM (#23278768)
Low interest rates helped produce one of the best labor markets in living memory before covid19 hit. This was a huge boon to lots and lots of people outside of the 1%.
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by mindslight on Friday May 22, 2020 @09:02PM (#23278840)
That's another piece of the mistaken middle class buy in - labor is not an end unto itself. At the same time we have massive technological progress focused on the goal of reducing human effort, the Federal Reserve is optimizing to keep everyone working full time. The entirely predictable result is a load of meaningless bullshit jobs, especially concentrated in the sectors that receive the new money.
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by mrep on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:48PM (#23276122)
What companies are getting bailed out besides the airlines and even that was half loans and the other half for payroll so just a roundabout way of keeping people employed? I guess you could call the small business loans a bailout but that was mainly forgivable for payroll also so another way of keeping people employed. Any that I am missing?
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by bpodgursky on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:54PM (#23275576)
Businesses optimize to produce goods and services and sell them to the world.

People optimize for health, happiness, and personal utility.

(1) It's reasonable for us to guide society towards different financial goals for people vs businesses. Business failure is part of life (not that we should try to make it happen). Personal failure is catastrophic. The risk/reward tradeoff is different.

(2) You'll notice I'm also not advocating for letting people starve in the streets, if they don't have savings. Help people. Help businesses. We're adults, we can do both.

Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by harryh on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:52PM (#23275553)
Businesses and people are different entities. There is little reason to expect that good advice for one would be good advice for the other.
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by burrows on Friday May 22, 2020 @05:42PM (#23277381)
Given your reasoning I should setup “Burrows Household Ltd.” to hold my assets. Then when the economy goes tits up I’ll say, “I don’t have 6 months savings, but that’s okay because I’m a business not a household.”
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by billfor on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:30PM (#23275338)
When businesses fail they can declare bankruptcy. The business still exists and the jobs can still exist. They don't necessarily need a handout from the government.
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by x86_64Ubuntu on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:26PM (#23275289)
Social Safety nets are designed for "extraordinary" circumstances too, but those are always on the chopping block.
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by number6 on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:36PM (#23275397)
Yeah but the beauty in this approach lies is this: While Social Safety will level out the social inequalities in the long run, meaning that someday your wealth runs out and you are on food stamps like everyone else. This system freezes you social status. Management will still earn 100x more while others earn next to nothing. It might also cost more, maybe a lot more, but it stabilizes society. True there might be a shift downwards but this is inevitable; most people will be staying on their social stage or at least the distance will be the same to the guy above and under you. This seems to be very important. Always wondered why some guys are passing you just to stand in front of you at the same traffic light? Same same.
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by aeternum on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:33PM (#23275371)
Isn't it healthy to frequently re-evaluate which government services should be expanded or contracted?
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by x86_64Ubuntu on Sunday May 24, 2020 @01:11PM (#23292926)
That's not what we see in practice. In practice, we see that any program that is deemed to benefit the "wrong" group is thrown onto the chopping block regardless of need and efficacy.
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by megaman821 on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:24PM (#23275268)
I don't think anything makes these businesses inefficient, just unlucky that they are disproportionately affected by shelter-in-place orders. Since the state is basically shutting down the business for the good of the populace, it seems more analogous to eminent domain. The government has taken something of value (the ability to have their business open) and should compensate these businesses partially for their losses.
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by 205guy on Friday May 22, 2020 @04:14PM (#23276429)
This is my view as well. The government (fed and states) hit the big pause button on the economy for public safety. They then help out the people and the corporations get through it with unemployment checks and loans to businesses so that the intangible value (relationships and expertise) is not lost.

I generally agree that we should guard against privatizing profit and socializing losses, but I don't think it applies here. The point is to get all businesses and people back to the point they were before.

Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by economicslol on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:32PM (#23275361)
So the capitalists that get massively rewarded for taking risks now get bailed out when those risks turned out bad? Sounds like BS to me.
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by mrep on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:13PM (#23275793)
How is the fed subsidizing inefficient businesses? If you are referring to their corporate bond purchases, they have bought a mere 1.8 billion dollars worth [0] representing a minuscule 0.025% of their balance sheet and it's not like the corporations get free money from that, they still have to pay off the bonds. They are by far mainly buying our own government's debt through US treasury securities and the mortgages on US citizens houses through Mortgage-backed Securities as stated in the article. You can see their balance sheet right here [1].

[0]: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/feds-balance-sheet-tops-7-...

[1]: https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h41/current/h41.htm#...

Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by nafey on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:13PM (#23275149)
So that the profits can be privatised and losses subsidised.
Re:Fed’s Balance Sheet Exceeds $7T for First Time in History by burrows on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:07PM (#23275103)
It's crypto-"State ownership of production".