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Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by sevenf0ur on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @10:03AM (#23234952)
> Well, how about deliberate dilution of precision or intentionally limiting the speed the GPS chip can be used at?

Is that a legal requirement or just done on request? I sort of chuckle whenever I hear of limitations like that being put in place as if someone that can construct an ICBM is going to be constrained by the GPS module.

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by cptskippy on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @11:54AM (#23236256)
It seems silly in today's world where anyone can roll a custom SoC and have it spun out by any number of Fabs over the weekend, but 30 years ago custom chips were pipe-dreams for all but the most advanced tech firms. The $2 microcontroller you use to turn your lamp on has more processing power than a desktop computer from the early 80s.

By putting artificial constraints on off-the-shelf GPS technology, it forced bad actors away from off-the-shelf technology and instead forced them to roll their own. This often meant an inferior product with potential compatibility issues and significant development time and costs.

The same thing is done with export controls. It seems silly today but in 2000 they were limiting where a Playstation 2 could be exported because at the time a beowulf cluster of PS2s would have been a powerful super computer for a country like Iran.

\* Missing words...

\\ The next generation of GPS doesn't have Selective Availability, presumably because today there's 3 alternatives to GPS out side of US control.

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by wwkeyboard on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @07:20PM (#23241490)
I thought SA was removed because we discovered ways around it. Specifically differential GPS(tl;dr is that if you have a known point on the ground you can take a measurement there and get the SA offset, this is widely used to compensate for atmospheric error in GPS).
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by mianos on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @07:50PM (#23241725)
Although WAAS and other similar techniques can be used to improve the accuracy there are many impracticalities of using secondary sources. The reason stated was to encourage civilian uses of the better accuracy. The other federal departments agreed there was more to be gained from civilian use than lost by making the more accurate signal than lost but limiting its use.
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by sunstone on Thursday May 21, 2020 @07:51AM (#23257289)
Actually, at the time, once other potential user groups saw how beneficial the technology could be for them (airlines, farmers, on and on) these groups threatened to send up their own GPS systems unless the government agreed to enable full accuracy. The government faced with losing control entirely or meeting the demands of industry chose two work with industry as the US legal writ did not extend to space.
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by a_zaydak on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @11:58PM (#23243154)
SA is illegal (turned off) in 2000 by Bill Clinton.
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by epanchin on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @10:10AM (#23235021)
The speed limit in the US is 1000mph, else it’s a munition.

I believe the US used to make their GPS slightly inaccurate, but this was done on the satellite side.

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by Arjuna on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @12:31PM (#23236822)
The speed limit in the US is 1000mph, else it’s a munition.

Please note: my apologies in advance for a comment that may be perceived as pedantic, but I just wanted to further illuminate this statement.

The U.S. regulation, which technically falls under the Export Administration Regulations (Navigation and Avionics), does not exclusively regulate GPS navigation in munitions applications; rather, it serves to regulate any airborne application where the GPS receiver is capable of resolving navigation telemetry at speeds in excess of 600 m/s. This equates to approximately 1,968.5 ft/s, or 1,342.16 MPH.

Given the speed limitation parameter of the aforementioned regulation, this regulation would not only apply to GPS receivers in munitions applications, but it would also apply to GPS receivers that are utilized in fighter aircraft, space vehicles, etc.

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by bjt2n3904 on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @01:30PM (#23237585)
According to Google, the F22 can do 1500 mph. Looks like civillian GPS is still good as long as you keep it under Mach 1.8 at sea level ;)

ICBMs on the other hand, reportedly go ten times the speed of an F22.

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by salty_biscuits on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @04:39PM (#23239904)
Is is really for missiles. Same reason the ITAR limits for accelerometers and gyros are relatively high (I think like 10g for acceleration). Same again for vibration tolerance. It is a barrier to entry for making a navigation system for missiles.
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by ohazi on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @01:58PM (#23237997)
Neither of which would be using a civilian GPS receiver?
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by RealityVoid on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @08:25PM (#23242004)
Well, not now they wouldn't.

I fail to see what is so hard to believe that an actor _could_ use civilian parts to get military capabilities. Yes, sure the are points about performance and reliability and what not but I can't shake the feeling that at least some of those points are exaggerated or marketing speak and the re is obviously a point where these components are good enough to be dangerous.

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by gsnedders on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @10:24AM (#23235187)
There's a few other restrictions as well as the 1000mph speed limit, as far as I'm aware.

GPS is still slightly inaccurate in its publicly available form: there's a second frequency broadcasting an encrypted signal, and with both frequencies you can better account for variations in the ionosphere.

Galileo I believe will shortly be the only system with worldwide coverage and publicly available multiple-frequency broadcast.

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by gorkish on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @12:27PM (#23236744)
ITAR regulations restrict GPS for civilian use to a maximum altitude and maximum velocity, but this is solely a software limitation that is increasingly becoming less relevant.

Although selective availability has been disabled for a very long time, even before SA was turned off it was easily possible to get a precision measurement by integrating over time as the SA error was pseudo-random. It is also possible to use things like the phase information from the non-civilian 'encrypted' signals to increase accuracy even though the data cannot be decoded. Some survey-grade receivers were doing this even before SA was disabled, and it's pretty standard now in the precision GPS world.

Your understanding of GPS is quite out of date. GPS began adding a second L2C frequency for consumer use 15 years ago, and started ramping it in 2014. They are in fact in the process of adding a third civilian signal called L5. You can get accuracy from the consumer signals <10cm while in motion today with the right receivers and antennas. L5 will make it more robust indoors and give higher accuracy with cheaper antennas.

Galileo is great, but I wouldn't be holding it up as a crown jewel of GNSS. They have had some major missteps and operational issues in the recent past.

For consumer applications, multi-GNSS receivers are really where it's at. Combining GPS + GLONASS + Galileo + BaiDou is not simply an excercise of comparing the resultant positions given by each networ, but actually being able to combine the information to produce a single faster or more reliable measurement. For instance, getting a 3d position from 2 GPS satellites + 2 Galileo satellites when ordinarily you would not even be able to get a 2d position from either network in that situation.

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by phicoh on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @04:09AM (#23244486)
I wonder how combining 2 GPS satellites with 2 Galileo satellites would work in a realtime setting.

As far as I know, GPS and Galileo have a different timebase. If you don't know the time difference, you can be way off.

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by michaelt on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @10:36AM (#23235322)
GPS is (slowly) adding new signals [1]; L2C a non-encrypted second frequency, and L5, a non-encrypted third frequency

Should be pretty exciting when it becomes available. To the extent one can be excited about something that takes 20 years to be delivered.

[1] https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/modernization/civilsignals/

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by gorkish on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @12:32PM (#23236843)
You don't have to wait for the full fleet to cycle before you can use L2C or L5. L2C is already 15 years into its rollout and is widely available despite still being "pre-operational" due to it not having 100% coverage at all times.

You also missed discussing L1C, the 4th civilian signal being introduced with GPS III. This will work primarily with L5 to enhance indoor accuracy.

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by andrewaylett on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @05:25AM (#23244881)
It's a bit looser than that -- 1000 mph _and_ above 60,000 ft, while also being unmanned.

Apparently (that is, according to Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#Rest... ) some systems implement the restriction as an "or" but the regs (https://web.archive.org/web/20080916123933/http://www.armsco... item 11 category II) don't require that.

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by willis936 on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @10:22AM (#23235161)
I find a bit of humor in imagining NASA rocket launches and atmospheric test vehicles being viewed, in some contexts, as a munition.
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by PeterisP on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @11:09AM (#23235669)
Pretty much everything with a potential dual use is classified as munitions, the U.S. Munitions List is quite long and explicit - https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=86008bdffd1fb2e79c...

A good example is shock absorbers designed for vehicles heavier than 30 tons. It has all kinds of civilian uses in heavy machinery, but since that's a key tech for armored vehicles, they are also on the munitions list. The same applies for rocket and jet engines above certain parameters, all kinds of space imaging technology, etc, etc.

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by numpad0 on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @11:12AM (#23235701)
Russians call everything a rocket anyway. RPG-7 is a rocket, Saturn V is a rocket, Sidewinder is a rocket. They’re not confused about it, they regard all to be in the same category.

It’s a bit political than technical that in American English guided rocket weapons are always called “missiles“. Same reason as J in NASA JPL stands for _jet_ though they don’t normally do turbine jets.

So calling non-military rockets as munitions could be, I think, potentially more straightforward.

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by pps43 on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @03:46PM (#23239286)
> Russians call everything a rocket anyway. RPG-7 is a rocket

Bad example. РПГ is "ручной противотанковый гранатомёт", approximately "man-portable anti-tank grenade launcher". Its round, "ПГ-7" is "anti-tank grenade". Rocket-propelled grenade is a backronym.

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by Piskvorrr on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @10:29AM (#23235242)
Well, both the Atlas and Soyuz (currently used by NASA and Roskosmos) were developed primarily for the U.S. and Soviet militaries as ICBM vehicles, the Space Race was something of a PR operation.

After all, you don't really need to have an explosive payload: just dropping a heavy enough missile can be devastating.

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by umvi on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @11:03AM (#23235603)
Are you referring to Kinetic Bombardment?[0]

Since kinetic energy increases with the square of velocity, if you can create a payload that can travel at hypersonic speeds (like a tungsten rod) without burning up then the amount of kinetic energy is in the tens of millions of joules. That's enough to destroy any single target, but doesn't have nearly the same destructive power as a nuke, which releases trillions of joules of energy.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by dmos62 on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @11:48AM (#23236174)
According to the wikipedia article, the tungsten rods in question would be 9 tons and would deliver an explosion equivalent to that of 11.5 tons of TNT. Considering the cost of getting it into orbit, this is only a good idea when the advantages of the delivery method outweigh that cost. The advantages of "rods from God" compared to ICBMS are that they're twice as fast and have different dynamics vs early warning systems or anti-ballistic systems.

By the way, checkout small kinetic projectiles bombardment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazy_Dog_(bomb)

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by Piskvorrr on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @11:33AM (#23235971)
Sure, tungsten rods also work. What I meant was something far less sophisticated - "we don't care what specifically is hit, as long as it impacts in the general area." See e.g. the Qassam missiles, or similarly, the North Korean space program (or "space program"?) and Japan.
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by numpad0 on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @11:14AM (#23235735)
> That's enough to destroy any single target, but

but that’s enough to destroy any single target! Like some bunkers.

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by umvi on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @11:29AM (#23235921)
True, but unless you have hundreds of them, I'm not sure if it's useful for MAD (i.e. replacement for nukes).

I suppose if you made the tungsten rods heavy enough and made made them travel fast enough you could get kinetic energy on par with small nukes, but the problem is it's highly directional (i.e. most of the energy is released underground and absorbed by the earth), unlike a nuke which can release all of its energy at once in an airburst 100 feet above a city.

It would be useful as a PGM in the arsenal, but probably not enough for MAD in an arms race. I could be wrong, though.

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by Piskvorrr on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @11:35AM (#23235991)
I thought that limiting the GPS from the top was to complicate making cheap missiles, something that might be used by rogue states or terrorists; for MAD, you probably wouldn't choose COTS equipment.
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by Rebelgecko on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @12:02PM (#23236365)
The majority of rockets that NASA has used throughout history are just modified nuclear missiles.
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by 0xffff2 on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @03:44PM (#23239270)
I'm a software engineer at NASA and it's an annoying fact of life for us every day. There's a huge overlap in the technology, we just have different applications. In fact, a huge percentage of our airplanes are aircraft military aircraft.
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by eternauta3k on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @05:40AM (#23244966)
Doesn't NASA also work with spy satellites?
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by GordonS on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @10:42AM (#23235372)
I believe "strong" encryption is still viewed as munitions in the US, or at least it used to be.
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by loeg on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @10:48AM (#23235449)
That's been over for a long time (1996): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_Wars#PC_era

There's still some verbiage around commercial products and embargoed countries, but realistically, North Korea and Iran have access to OpenSSL, so it hardly matters.

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by dfox on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @01:14PM (#23237349)
Another interesting class of dual-use technology are fast power switching elements. And both modern SMPSs and Class D audio amplifiers are worryingly near to what would have to be considered a “munition”.
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by brokenmachine on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @11:53PM (#23243128)
What are the rules for munitions-class switching power supplies and Class D amps?

A CPU switches a hell of a lot faster than either of those, although with much less current.

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by ISL on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @10:43AM (#23235390)
It is an unfortunate fact that many scientific endeavors involve technology that can have dual uses.
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by Piskvorrr on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @11:45AM (#23236119)
Starting with a rock. So, essentially, the whole tech tree.
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by pjc50 on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @11:50AM (#23236189)
Anything's a munition if you drop it on someone's head from that height and speed.
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by cozzyd on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @10:11AM (#23235035)
We always have to get our altitude restrictions removed for various devices for high-altitude balloon flights.
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by jimhefferon on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @10:05AM (#23234982)
It was required. But that was gotten rid of by the Clinton administration. See https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/modernization/sa/ .
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by loeg on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @10:49AM (#23235458)
The thing you're thinking of is true, but there are still speed limits on commercial GPS chips to prevent their use in missile guidance systems. TFA seems to be clearly flouting that law, so, good luck to them.
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by hjb on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @11:39AM (#23236038)
If you dig into their website, they appear to be based in Singapore and Japan. I've no idea if those countries have similar laws.
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by opencl on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @12:10PM (#23236470)
They indicate plans to sell hardware on Crowdsupply which is based in the US. Presumably this is going to be FPGA-based which brings up all the fun questions of how ITAR applies to software.

Would adding a speed restriction in their VHDL that could be trivially bypassed by patching out one line of code satisfy ITAR requirements?

AOSP has this sort of code in it (search for ITAR_SPEED_LIMIT): https://android.googlesource.com/platform/frameworks/base/+/...

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by gsnedders on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @12:24PM (#23236713)
> Presumably this is going to be FPGA-based which brings up all the fun questions of how ITAR applies to software.

I mean there's plenty of prior art with open-source crypto implementations here.

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by tezzer on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @04:33PM (#23239841)
Crypto is its own category in the ITAR, one whose impact decreased over time as events made the restrictions less relevant. Most crypto is now EAR not ITAR, but treated as a special category. I'm not sure the software classification lessons are going to apply.
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by londons_explore on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @11:45AM (#23236127)
US law applies worldwide when it comes to this sort of stuff... You can bet if you started producing these chips and selling them to Iran, you would either be arrested and child porn found on your laptop, or have an 'accident'.
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by centimeter on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @12:56PM (#23237126)
Selective Availability was something they did on the satellites (intentionally induce pseudorandom noise into the timing). The regulations on the GPS chips themselves are different.
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by lgats on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @05:04PM (#23240179)
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by chc4 on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @11:25AM (#23235866)
China also has strict restrictions on GPS data, including requiring purposeful obfuscation of coordinates for their GCJ-02 geodetic datum, for national security purposes. They don't want accurate maps made.
Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by londons_explore on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @11:53AM (#23236240)
GCJ-02 used to be a secret way to warp maps to make them less useful for military uses.

Now, the GCJ-02 is so well reverse engineered it's practically useless, and just introduces bugs in mapping software when different coordinate systems are used.

Re:We built a new GPS receiver engine by MrMorden on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @01:07PM (#23237260)
GCJ-02 might have made things slightly more difficult for India; would it have ever slowed down the US by even a second? I'd be surprised if the country most damaged by that decision in practice wasn't the PRC.