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Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by magicsmoke on Friday May 15, 2020 @01:41AM (#23189259)
China won't march into Taiwan until they can win a naval war with the US to keep the US from retaliating. And if China can do that, they won't have to march into Taiwan.

2050 Indo-pacific naval war is my prediction.

Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by chmod775 on Friday May 15, 2020 @03:48AM (#23189893)
A naval war in 2050? I suspect that in 2050 mach 20 missiles are going to be the norm, not the exception, and point defense is essentially... pointless against those.

It's already inadequate against today's (~mach 5) supersonic missiles. And china has literally tens of thousands with thousands of kilometers range stationed along their coast. A navy that pokes its head out is not going to last long.

China's missile superiority in the (western pacific) region has long been a thorn in the US side, but there's little that can be done given that their territory is there, and the US can at best station some in allied territories nearby or put it on ships, which are easy targets.

So you pretty much have to keep your ships hidden at all times, but being hidden they are going to be pretty much useless except as missile platforms.

Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by enaaem on Friday May 15, 2020 @05:32AM (#23190380)
The inherent cost effectiveness of missiles is also a problem for China if they want to invade Taiwan. Taiwan has a large arsenal of anti-ship missiles that can be launched from trucks. Combined with naval mines, they can make an invasion by sea very costly.
Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by riffraff on Friday May 15, 2020 @04:06AM (#23189988)
what about submarines? It seems likely one of the first moves the US could do is disrupt china's economy by simply blocking their sea routes.
Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by TeMPOraL on Friday May 15, 2020 @04:45AM (#23190158)
The question is, who would that harm more? March 2020 has shown us that disrupting sea routes between two continents hurts everyone.
Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by magicsmoke on Friday May 15, 2020 @10:35AM (#23192641)
Certainly not the US. One of the US's greatest geopolitical advantages is that it actually does have all the natural resources it needs in the America's. That's why calls for isolationist policies can be so enticing, because unlike for most countries dependent on oil or metals from international trade, there's no physical barrier to the US taking the option of turtling up. China would suffocate on its lack of oil as it tries to sip what it can through the straws it has to Russian oil fields on the other end of Eurasia if it ever had international oil shipping barred from it.
Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by solstice on Friday May 15, 2020 @08:01AM (#23191136)
Right now you are right. But I suspect that a lot of governments are furiously at work right now to figure out to turn back globalization a bit to lower their dependence on products being manufactured far away. So I think that the equation will change to some degree and that in turn lower interdependence of countries and therefore possibly the threshold for conflicts...
Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by mytailorisrich on Friday May 15, 2020 @06:18AM (#23190584)
No country wants to start WWIII.

I don't think the PRC is in a position to finish off the ROC, and I don't think it would be in their interests, either.

But equally I don't think that the US want to intervene directly should the PRC take over Taiwan. This would be madness. The problem is thus to imagine how the US would manage to politically 'sell' their inaction. But at the same time, would the PRC dare to take the bet that the US wouldn't intervene?

Taiwan is not much different from Crimea on many aspects, but it is different in one key aspect: It's been given much more international prominence, mostly because it is a pawn to annoy the PRC. But the downside is that it makes non-intervention (which is the reasonable course of action, like in Crimea) more difficult to sell.

Then, should the PRC invade (which is unlikely) while I'm sure that the Taiwanese would put up a good fight they would lose anyway. There would be plenty of grand speeches and maybe sanctions, but the reality is that everyone would just be looking for the right time to recognise the situation and move on (that's what happened with the existence of the PRC itself, and I'm sure is what will happen with Crimea).

Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by throw51319 on Friday May 15, 2020 @11:20AM (#23193175)
Yeah but isn't it the definition of a slippery slope?
Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by mytailorisrich on Friday May 15, 2020 @11:29AM (#23193297)
Not really. Taiwan really is an internal Chinese issue and Crimea is essentially 'repairing' the issue of a Russian territory (with majority Russian population) that was split from Russia relatively recently. Everyone knows that and thus no-one is going to start a direct war over these territories.

But even if you were contemplating a direct war the issue would be that direct wars against Russia or China are not realistic because they are nuclear powers and, in any case, too big to invade. Any direct war would certainly require a major aggression from these countries against the US themselves, which they obviously won't do in the same way as the US won't directly attack them.

It's all boils down to relative strengths and outcome of a war. There are wars that are never worth starting.

Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by throw51319 on Friday May 15, 2020 @03:21PM (#23196264)
How is Taiwan an internal Chinese issue? There was a civil war that ended in a deadlock. Both societies grew and actually interacted fairly peacefully for 70 years. The people in Taiwan view themselves overwhelmingly as Taiwanese. Using your logic applied to Crimea, should they not obviously be Taiwan then?

The question is, do we want to end this idea of "taking back" things that were "ours" in the past? What even is "ours" and when do you get to call the cutoff time? What is it, 1800 AD, 1200 AD, or 2000 BC?

China itself was made up of smaller civilizations many ages ago... so if I'm a present day decendant of one of them, do I get to claim that part of China as my own?

Also, when did the CCP ever control Taiwan? Never. So how can they take it back?

Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by mytailorisrich on Friday May 15, 2020 @04:35PM (#23197096)
It is factually an internal issue. There is the Republic of China on one side, the People's Republic of China on the other. This is the same as North v South Korea (the war isn't over in both cases, they are just playing the clock) but with the crucial difference that in China's case one side is too big to be pushed over.

Again, this has been played to annoy the PRC, standard divide-and-conquer tactic, but the reality remains that no country is going to go to war against China over this, or in general.

Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by throw51319 on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @12:51PM (#23249053)
To use your logic - if there is an internal genocide in an country, there should be no outside interference because it's internal. The stronger party should be able to do what it wants because it's stronger.

It's ridiculous. The whole point is we don't want to have a strength-based order in the world. If so, it will become winner take all and lots of people will die.

If China wants to "finish" a civil war and start the attack then fine, they have the blood of innocents on their hands.

Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by barrkel on Friday May 15, 2020 @07:03AM (#23190773)
China can almost certainly win a naval war with the US already; or rather, negate the US's naval force projection tool of choice, the aircraft carrier, with anti-ship ballistic missiles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DF-26 - range of 2500 miles

Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by HideousKojima on Friday May 15, 2020 @09:42AM (#23192045)
Every Carrier Battle Group has two ships in it that are essentially devoted to just protecting the carrier whether from missiles or other threats. We've yet to see how effective systems like Aegis are against anti-ship missiles (though I'm sure the DoD has done plenty of tests) but it's far from clear that anti-ship missiles obsolete carriers. And given that China is starting their own carrier fleets I'm guessing they don't think things are so clear cut either.

The Exocet was made way back in the early 70's yet carriers and surface fleets in general still aren't obsolete.

Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by barrkel on Friday May 15, 2020 @12:31PM (#23194078)
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/china-likely-tested-m...

https://globalnews.ca/news/4810853/china-railgun-warship-wea...

https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2019/3/22/i...

https://news.usni.org/2019/03/05/report-u-s-carriers-need-ne...

https://www.businessinsider.com/the-us-apparently-gets-its-a...

Of course a lot of this is self-serving stuff designed to drum up more money to spend, but defence against missiles is fundamentally asymmetric. The defender need to get lucky every time, while the attacker only needs to be lucky once or twice. And MIRV is a big multiplier in favour of the attacker.

Carriers are great against countries or factions without anti-ship missile capability.

Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by jbay808 on Friday May 15, 2020 @12:59PM (#23194451)
Well, some of that certainly must come from an opponent's reluctance to sink them, not their inability to do so.

If you use a nuclear warhead, you don't have to hit the ship directly.

Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by Recurecur on Sunday May 17, 2020 @06:09PM (#23215960)
Can those ballistic missiles actually hit anything?

They're converted ICBMs, and require some kind of terminal guidance. Something traveling Mach 10+ can't use radar or infrared guidance. How does it hit a maneuvering ship?

Current thinking is drones or some other local surveillance would be used, radio linked to the DF-21. I wonder how well that will work alongside US electronic warfare capabilities?

Interesting stuff...

Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by chasd00 on Friday May 15, 2020 @12:09PM (#23193810)
those are ballistic missiles, can they even hit a moving target? Besides, if it comes to it, after sinking an aircraft carrier the US Congress would have no choice but a full declaration of war. That means SLBMs engaged (ie Tridents) before surrender, it would be the end of the world.
Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by barrkel on Friday May 15, 2020 @12:33PM (#23194104)
Sure, but MAD is mutual, i.e. is symmetric.

(This is why I am a fan of nuclear weapons, but it still negates the idea of a naval battle.)

Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by neilpanchal on Friday May 15, 2020 @01:48AM (#23189301)
Just broadcast the entire battle on the world stage and we shall watch the show. No human deaths, no civilian casualties, the whole battlefield would be completely remote controlled, streaming in a 128K VR extravaganza. I think the future of war sounds fun.
Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by threatofrain on Friday May 15, 2020 @02:56AM (#23189661)
No way the future will only be robot vs robot in some sterile symbolic chess game. The endgame is robots getting past robots to kill people.
Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by TeMPOraL on Friday May 15, 2020 @04:42AM (#23190133)
Indeed. A proxy robot war is just a very expensive game. And if you can settle your differences this way, you may as well do that in Quake 3 Arena for cheaper. And if you can settle your differences with Q3A, you may as well do that over the negotiating table. All of these depend on mutual cooperation; both parties agreeing to respect the outcome of the game.

Real war starts when one party is unhappy about the outcome and unilaterally decides to no longer cooperate.

Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by magicsmoke on Friday May 15, 2020 @10:40AM (#23192691)
Also when the two parties misjudge their relative military strength. If both parties were in relative agreement about what the outcome of their war would be they wouldn't have to fight one in order to negotiate changes to the status quo. That's why espionage can be a stabilizing force and the US and USSR had treaties during the latter parts of the cold war allowing each side to fly spy planes into the others territory to count missile sites.
Re:TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Se... by jbay808 on Friday May 15, 2020 @01:03PM (#23194513)
Well, you have to make sure those spies also report that neither side would decisively win. The US and USSR must both have already been confident enough in their own strength to openly allow the other side to see it.