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Re:Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order t... by simonh on Thursday May 14, 2020 @03:19AM (#23176432)
Brit here. By and large we have the rights we want. Some rights we have voluntarily abrogated in order to meet what we believe to be more important responsibilities. These are legitimate decisions for a democratic nation to make.
Re:Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order t... by dgzl on Thursday May 14, 2020 @04:38AM (#23177015)
That's a unanimous opinion? You're speaking for all 66M of your citizens?

>Some rights we have voluntarily abrogated in order to meet what we believe to be more important responsibilities

This would be handled by our 10th amendment rights.

So I'm looking for a source of what rights Brits have and it's sort of difficult to understand... This [0] outlines several dates of ratification but I'm not really sure which currently apply. I figure at least these [1] apply but maybe you can give me better information. After looking at some of these articles of rights, I'm not overly impressed, most of these "rights" have asterisks on them. Not to mention how often these say "necessary in a democratic society" when talking about the restrictions, as if they know you're not going to be convinced when reading it.

> Article 10: 1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers.

> 2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

Notice how the conditions are vague, ambiguous and longer than the right itself? That's going to be a big fat no from me, bob.

An interesting difference with the American Bill of Rights is that it's largely full of implied rights, as it doesn't expressly grant rights to people, rather it's written in the form of "government cannot do xyz".

> Amendment 1: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The end. No asterisks, no vague conditions, no ambiguity.

[0] https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/what-are-human-rights... [1] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/42/contents

Re:Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order t... by simonh on Thursday May 14, 2020 @05:51AM (#23177527)
>That's a unanimous opinion?

As I pointed out in my post, we are a democracy. Off the top of my head, I'm not familiar with any forms of government that require unanimity. Do you really think that's a necessary requirement?

>So I'm looking for a source of what rights Brits have and it's sort of difficult to understand...

Rich coming from someone in a country that has blatant civil forfeiture, practices extraordinary rendition, still has the death sentence, has courts which have ruled that "Innocence is not sufficient grounds for appeal", that has appalling systematic gerrymandering disenfranchising millions of citizens at the heart of the electoral process, in which monstrous levels of vote buying are routine, oh good grief I could go on and on.

Theory is great, but practical results matter. In theory a written constitution sounds great, but I'm really not impressed at all with how it seems to work out in practice. Don't take this too closely, I love the USA and have visited many times, youre is a safe, prosperous and largely free country I admire very much, but the problems you do have are so deeply ingrained into the culture and society and frozen in place by partisan interpretations of technical language that I do despair sometimes. In practical terms I genuinely feel vastly more confident in my liberty, safety and freedom over here than in the US.

Re:Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order t... by dgzl on Friday May 15, 2020 @01:20AM (#23189138)
>Theory is great, but practical results matter.

True that! Thankfully our Supreme Court frequently sides with the people and their rights against the government.

You wanna know something that I think a lot of people don't really understand about America........ we're a really young country. One of the youngest. And one of the best! We haven't had much time to settle into our new diggs, ever since we fought your terrible government- and won. Our country is still settling while many other first-world countries, such as Britain, have been settled for centuries. You may not understand this but our government isn't federal top-down. The organization isn't Feds > State > Local > People. That's not how rights work in America (see A10.)

>In practical terms I genuinely feel vastly more confident in my liberty, safety and freedom over here than in the US.

I get the feeling you don't excersize contentious liberties. In which case, you're not the right person to ask if they feel confident in their liberty.

Re:Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order t... by fennecfoxen on Thursday May 14, 2020 @06:52AM (#23177953)
> By and large we have the rights we want.

If you have only "the rights we want" then your rights are subject to the whims of the majority.

In America our tradition of civil liberties protected the Illinois Nazis' freedom of speech as they marched through Skokie, celebrating the enemies of America who, within living memory, had waged war and killed millions of our citizens. The exercise meant as an affront to our nation and everything it values. We celebrated it, because if our worst enemies can have rights we don't like, then everyone can have rights.

In the UK, you can't even tolerate Dankula, and people think it's wonderful and good that he was fined for the nazi pug incident, and no one has really has rights unless they're popular. You'd think incidents like that would wave a few red flags, given that your nations' checkered moral history includes multi-century exercises in the deliberate oppression of your religious enemies.

Re:Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order t... by simonh on Thursday May 14, 2020 @07:35AM (#23178237)
I agree the Dankula issue was a mistake. I’m not saying our system is perfect, is yours? But by and large there is actually a pretty strong consensus, even across political lines, on our system of civil liberties and protections and I don’t see anything like the same level of consensus in the US.
Re:Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order t... by fennecfoxen on Thursday May 14, 2020 @09:44AM (#23179386)
It is regrettable that we do not have a consensus in favor of rights, and that so many people are seeking to use the law to make their critics shut up, in a variety of arenas — whether Trump-huggers trying to revoke the license of critical news media (such a "license" being a concept that doesn't even exist) or state run school districts disciplining kids for wearing a MAGA hat, or any one of a number of university speech codes.

But in that respect, at least, our law is working as intended, the founding fathers' forethought centuries ago still supplying a recourse in the courts when the politically weak are oppressed by the powerful. In the UK, the courts are an official apparatus of the powerful's oppression, and the consensus is that this is how it should be.

[dead]
Re:Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order t... by DanBC on Thursday May 14, 2020 @05:32AM (#23177411)
You're allowed to teach your pug to do Nazi salutes. You're not allowed to film yourself saying "gas the Jews" 20 times while showing your dog doing Nazi salutes. [EDIT...and then broadcast this to your YouTube channel]

He went to court and he could have tried a freedom of speech defence but he chose not to.

Re:Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order t... by dgzl on Thursday May 14, 2020 @05:40AM (#23177462)
I must be missing something, where is the distinction here? They seem like equally problematic actions of speech.
Re:Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order t... by DanBC on Thursday May 14, 2020 @05:46AM (#23177501)
One is private to his home. It was the broadcasting that got him the conviction.
Re:Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order t... by dgzl on Thursday May 14, 2020 @05:55AM (#23177548)
I think I'm missing some context. Filming isn't the issue then, broadcasting is? Seems like another asterisk on supposed "rights" that exist in countries that pretend they have them.
Re:Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order t... by DanBC on Thursday May 14, 2020 @07:00AM (#23178000)
An article 10 freedom of expression defence was available to him, and the judge even asked him to make that defence, but he and his legal team chose not to use a freedom of speech defence.
Re:Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order t... by mydongle on Thursday May 14, 2020 @04:43AM (#23177035)
Oi oi, do you have a license for that hot opinion?
Re:Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order t... by dgzl on Thursday May 14, 2020 @05:41AM (#23177473)
Oi Gov'nor, can't you just scan my brain and tell if I'm lying? That would make life so much easier.