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Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by toohotatopic on Sunday May 10, 2020 @12:10PM (#23133692)
Even if there is a second wave, there will be a time after Corona eventually. There won't be any new players by then so the market shares will almost be unchanged.

Stock prices are discounted future profits for about 15 to 20 years. Those profits are still there when Corona is over. From that perspective, why should share prices fall by more than 5-10% for every year that Corona is locking down the economy?

*edit: If anything, the economy will prosper because Corona has forced every company into the 21th century by requiring remote work and digital workflows.

Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by xcasperx on Sunday May 10, 2020 @03:45PM (#23135488)
This is assuming a (or near) 100% efficient market. Which it definitely is not.

Analysts use different methods to discount cash flows: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/professionals/072915/d...

Finding R (what to discount by) can be difficult to do: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/021015/advan...

I don't work in IB or PE so take what I put with a grain of salt, just what I've learned.

Also, you know markets aren't near efficient when people invest in $ZOOM and not $ZM and when Elon tweets $TSLA stock is too high.

You can look at daily gainers and losers and watch them over the course of the week. They are extremely volatile.

If you're talking about the S&P500 it's a little easier to do. A little over 50% of the value of S&P 500 is the top 50 companies by weight. The top 100 equate to 70% and the top 250 equate to 90%.

Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by tfehring on Monday May 11, 2020 @12:22AM (#23138882)
There's a pretty good technical illustration of how the discount rate impacts stock prices here [0].

This does provide one plausible answer to the headline question from TFA: Corporations' expected future profits are lower than they were pre-COVID, but the valuation discount rate is lower because the expected future return for assets in general is lower, so the present value of corporations' expected future profits is the same-ish as it was pre-COVID.

[0] https://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2018/02/stock-gyrations.h...

Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by nostrademons on Sunday May 10, 2020 @12:58PM (#23134111)
From that perspective, the stock market should have no volatility in share prices whatsoever - it should fairly value each company based on their profits over the next 15 to 20 years, and since those profits don't change, neither should the share price.

Stocks are based on expectations of future profits, i.e. psychology. "In the long run, the stock market is a weighing machine. In the short run, it's a voting machine."

Few investors' psychology will let them look at a year of bad news and still think "Oh, it's going to get better in the future." After about 3 months you start doubting yourself and wondering if maybe you were wrong in the first place, and you've entered a brave new world where people randomly die and commerce or long-term plans are impossible. All of the economic data - corporate earnings, employment, share prices, etc. - will reflect the new normal, so there's no reason (other than your memory of what the '10s were like) to believe that share prices would always go up.

Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by shoo on Sunday May 10, 2020 @04:42PM (#23135987)
> stock market should have no volatility in share prices whatsoever - it should fairly value each company based on their profits over the next 15 to 20 years

Computing this depends on estimating/forecasting/extrapolating/guessing a lot of values. E.g. what kind of revenue growth the company will have. How the structure of company expenses may change. Parameters like a discount rate make a huge difference in the estimated value. In many cases the majority of the value for a discounted cash flow valuation of a stock comes from the tail term where you give up trying to unroll the contribution for each year and make a simpler approximation of what the company will be doing 20 years+ in the future.

The computed share value has a lot of sensitivity to adjusting some of these inputs, and in many cases it is not at all obvious what values parameters should be set to.

Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by nostrademons on Sunday May 10, 2020 @04:53PM (#23136064)
But that's the point. Parent poster is assuming that the future profits of a company won't change over the next 15-20 years because of coronavirus. Everyone in this subthread is pointing out that that's not a valid assumption. We've already seen the discount rate drop to zero in the last couple months. Will it stay there? Will we get hyperinflation? Will we get deflation as laid-off workers lose their spending power? Will the target market of many companies end up dead? Will companies go bankrupt through lack of cash flow? Are we going to see civil unrest or a breakdown of political authority?

Many of these are permanent consequences that will absolutely effect earnings 15-20 years in the future. The market seems to be pricing in an assumption that this will be a blip: we'll reopen, businesses will rehire, and 2021 will look much like 2019. I don't believe that's likely.

Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by Jommi on Sunday May 10, 2020 @05:27PM (#23136369)
I think you're nitpicking on the parent comment forgetting to add "estimated" before "future profits."
Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by joering2 on Sunday May 10, 2020 @12:20PM (#23133784)
Because someone has to buy products and services? With 40 mil unemployment numbers it will be hard to sell stuff when noone has power to buy.

Take my mother in law as example. Hard core shopoholic. Amazon and QVC packages coming in daily. Hair nails etc done weekly at salons. Now for two weeks silence. She lost her job and empty bank account hit her like reality check. Shes on her way to a friend - they will do each other hair and nails. And when I told her it will all go back to normal on January 1st, so many people died she tells me “i am not going out anyways for very long time”

Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by dasudasu on Sunday May 10, 2020 @03:33PM (#23135395)
Discounting is also a harsh mistress. If your model expected a 10% discount rate but actually achieves -20%, say next year, then it would need to produce 51% just to get back to baseline on the year after that. Early missed returns do hurt disproportionately unless there is an easy way to get back on track.
Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by Dumblydorr on Sunday May 10, 2020 @12:27PM (#23133856)
How do you know there will be a time after Corona? In all likelihood, it is here to stay like influenza and rhinovirus and other respiratory illnesses. The only way we recover the economy is by gaining herd immunity such that 25-50k yearly die, not 200k. That comes with vaccine and with wide scale exposure, which I'd wager is by 2021 summer. But even then, old folks will still die by the thousands each year due to covid 19.
Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by notabee on Sunday May 10, 2020 @02:05PM (#23134628)
At the current death rate, we're on track to reach 200k dead by early July. And that's only the deaths that are being counted. There is a substantial increase in overall mortality beyond the year to year average, beyond the confirmed Covid deaths. Considering that this disease is causing pulmonary embolisms, strokes, heart attacks, and other manifestations of out of control clotting even in healthy young people, we may realistically have already hit 200k dead in June counting the people who have died suddenly at home without being tested.
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Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by mancerayder on Sunday May 10, 2020 @04:34PM (#23135933)
I've heard that repeatedly, and then even Musk parroted that, and it's time to kill that muddying of the waters because it confuses people. Here's the thing - you can't hide dead bodies, and at some point, somewhere, a death is counted. And if someone has a stroke and it's falsely a coronadeath, as you put it, there's a stat called Excess Deaths that's available for that reason.[1] If there's a sudden spike in overall deaths, then it's harder to fudge the numbers, as you say. Unless suddenly there are more strokes or other dangerous things going on such that more people die in ways unrelated to corona. The closest argument would be the economic situation is killing people, but that's a huge stretch (people don't just drop dead because they're out of work).

1 - https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by sacred_numbers on Sunday May 10, 2020 @04:05PM (#23135693)
That may be true, but the evidence mostly is pointing in the direction of undercounting COVID deaths. In northern Italy the official death count was less than half of "excess deaths", with the worst-hit areas having the most excess deaths. Certainly some of the excess deaths are due to people avoiding hospitals, or higher stress levels, but a lot are due to COVID deaths at home, or undiagnosed COVID deaths. Also, we still don't really understand this disease enough to know what effects it has on the body. There have been reports of people with COVID having strokes at much higher rates than would be expected for the same age demographic. It will be hard to tell which complications were coincidence and which were caused by COVID until later on when we have more data.
Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by throwaway743 on Sunday May 10, 2020 @05:35PM (#23136438)
> Also, we still don't really understand this disease enough to know what effects it has on the body.

This is especially worrying, now that the US military is barring previously hospitalized COVID survivors from enlisting and not allowing waivers.

Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by dragonwriter on Sunday May 10, 2020 @05:38PM (#23136472)
> This is especially worrying, now that the US military is barring previously hospitalized COVID survivors from enlisting and not allowing waivers.

That's almost certainly a temporary policy because of the lack of information enacted with the expectation that it will be evolved based on future information, not something that should make the lack of information more worrying.

Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by throwaway743 on Sunday May 10, 2020 @05:40PM (#23136483)
Let's hope so
Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by gvjddbnvdrbv on Monday May 11, 2020 @09:06AM (#23141647)
Given the effects of Covid on the age range of people wanting to join the military this policy seems rather pointless. Very few people will be affected.
Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by throwaway743 on Monday May 11, 2020 @10:59AM (#23142850)
For sure in that regard. I'm more curious about why though? Is it because of the unknowns? Or is there a known that's being held back to avoid panic?

Regardless, who knows? I'm just curious to know

Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by acdha on Sunday May 10, 2020 @05:40PM (#23136481)
There’s a big global uptick in mortality even in countries where a national healthcare system lacks that financial incentive. Unless you have hard proof that there’s widespread misreporting it’s actively harmful to spread conspiracy theories during a pandemic.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronav...

Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by tfehring on Monday May 11, 2020 @12:45AM (#23138990)
For all ages with non-negligible COVID-19 mortality rates (i.e., everyone over ~60), the baseline total mortality rate over the course of a few weeks is orders of magnitude lower than the mortality rate for COVID-19 over that same time period. The amount by which attributing all deaths in COVID-19 patients to COVID-19 could overstate the true case fatality rate is negligible.
Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by dmode on Sunday May 10, 2020 @03:43PM (#23135468)
This is the theory that has been peddled quite a bit. But doesn’t really add up, since you can easily do a year over year comparison of death numbers. Unless, you suddenly think a significant portion of people are dying of heart attack this year
Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by gvjddbnvdrbv on Sunday May 10, 2020 @03:44PM (#23135482)
It is highly likely that if someone with corona has a stroke it is caused by the corona. Coronavirus causes clotting.
Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by majewsky on Sunday May 10, 2020 @03:48PM (#23135515)
What kind of incentives are we talking here? Honest question; I don't have insight into the medical care sector.
Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by Consultant32452 on Sunday May 10, 2020 @08:18PM (#23137576)
I might have the numbers off a bit, but it's something like...

If you have a patient at your hospital and you are able to give them a covid diagnosis, you get $8k from the federal government. If you can put them on a ventilator for a few minutes, you get $35k from the federal government. This is intended to help offset the costs of care for covid patients to healthcare providers. You can get a covid diagnosis by having some of the sympoms... like coughing, weakness, shortness of breath, etc. I imagine it's difficult to die from anything without some weakness or shortness of breath. So it is very easy to say the patient had "covid-like" symptoms, and put covid as the cause of death.

Now, keep in mind that at the same time, healthcare providers are furloughing and laying off workers. Since "non-essential" care is on hold, there's not enough work for people to do in most places in the country. This places healthcare providers in a difficult moral position where they can inflate a number and keep their employees on payroll, or strictly follow it and lay everyone off.

One easy way to help with this data issue is to simply differentiate the deaths where a person had covid-like symptoms vs a death where a person actually tested positive for covid.

Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by koboll on Sunday May 10, 2020 @03:52PM (#23135552)
Blood clots are a symptom of coronavirus. I'm not sure what else we should expect here.
Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by catalogia on Sunday May 10, 2020 @03:05PM (#23135146)
Even in the unlikely scenario where resistance/immunity/vaccines for corona never develop and it never goes away, there will come a point where people consider the death toll acceptable losses and the lockdowns will be lifted. E.g. the current attitude towards car accidents and influenza deaths. (And yes, I know corona is worse than either. Eventually, should corona truly become the 'new normal', that won't matter.)
Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by mvkel on Monday May 11, 2020 @09:54AM (#23142138)
It's helpful to use Spanish Flu as a proxy. It was almost completely overlooked by historians, mostly due to it coming on the heels of WWI, but look at what 1921 and beyond looked like. Back to normal. That's with the same social distancing and mask-wearing measures we see today. But no vaccine.

What's clear is society now seems to be willing to let COVID run its course (and kill discriminately) as long as we keep below hospital capacity. If we allow that to happen, then we'll reach herd immunity, regardless of vaccine availability, within a couple of years.

Let's just hope it doesn't mutate.

Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by LinuxBender on Monday May 11, 2020 @12:28PM (#23143884)
If you would like to keep an eye on mutations, some of them are tracked here [1]

[1] - https://nextstrain.org/ncov/global

Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by koheripbal on Sunday May 10, 2020 @03:41PM (#23135451)
A vaccine is a near certainty.
Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by foob4r on Sunday May 10, 2020 @06:44PM (#23137018)
Over an infinite period of time, sure.
Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by tobltobs on Sunday May 10, 2020 @03:59PM (#23135624)
why?
Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by o-__-o on Sunday May 10, 2020 @02:06PM (#23134644)
Worst case 10 years, likely well less than that and coronavirus won’t matter to humans. You see we have what’s called an inate and an adaptive immune system. The inate immune system catches coronavirus and immediately illicits a response, the adaptive immune system catches infections that the inate immune knows about. The innate immune system dies off after you are 10 or 11 and your adaptive immune system catches 90% of foreign invaders over your life.

I’m giving some background because it means kids and children today have antibodies created by the innate system that fights off novel coronavirus. Which means their adaptive system will be able to remember and fight back against this virus. This means mutations, specifically this means weaker general strains in the future akin to the cold/flu.

Let me put it this way.. RSV is a nasty respiratory illness but we as a species survive quite well along side it even if it happens to kill a few babies and old people every year

Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by gwf on Monday May 11, 2020 @01:26AM (#23139142)
Your descriptions of the human immune system and of viral evolution are both wildly inaccurate. I don’t intend to be snarky, but nearly every sentence is factually incorrect.
Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by ericb on Sunday May 10, 2020 @12:18PM (#23133759)
> why should share prices fall by more than 5-10% for every year that Corona is locking down the economy?

Risk adjustment.

1-Risk of death/bankruptcy for companies.

2-Risk of reduced consumer spending. This can happen because people are in financial shock, or because unemployment stays high. Perhaps some of these layoffs aren't "furloughs." Some of these businesses won't survive, like many restaurants. My expense is your revenue, but I won't spend if I don't feel "safe" physically and financially and if I don't have a job, well... On top of which, what if some part of society stops going out?

3-Risk of permanently slowed economic activity due to coronavirus spread in trading partners.

4-Risk that the vaccines don't work out and there is no "time after corona." Even if this risk is small, it is non-zero, and catastrophic.

Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by grey-area on Sunday May 10, 2020 @03:17PM (#23135277)
Stock prices are discounted future profits for about 15 to 20 years. Those profits are still there when Corona is over. From that perspective, why should share prices fall by more than 5-10% for every year that Corona is locking down the economy?

Thats the theory. In practice stock prices wildly oscillate around expected value (which is a gradual curve up and to the right), with no apparent logic. As shiller points out in irrational exuberance, stock markets do not consistently reflect expected long term returns.

Re:Why is the stock market rallying when the economy is so bad? by koheripbal on Sunday May 10, 2020 @03:41PM (#23135452)
No one makes the claim that short term price changes are rational. They are bets made by humans - very flawed biased humans. ... but if you can be more rational than them, then you can make a lot of money in the long term.

... but I find that most people who complain about irrational markets lack the conviction to bet against it.