News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by shmerl on Saturday May 09, 2020 @10:19PM (#23129812)
Console development is sickening with all the NDAs and such, so it's hard to combine their dinosaur approach with normal open development model. Console makers really should switch to the new century already and drop all their NDA garbage.
Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by zanny on Sunday May 10, 2020 @01:37AM (#23130544)
Video game consoles, especially modern ones (the Switch is an Nvidia Android tablet, the Xbone and PS4 are AMD NUCs) are fundamentally owner hostile devices. Their business model is to sell you a computer with crippled software and no ccontrol over it where programming for it requires NDA to get developer documentation.

They are a gross facimilie of computer. They waste what could be general usage hardware on restricted functionality all for the sake of maintaing total software control to extort maximum profits out of their userbase. And they can only get away with it by having their userbases - the audience they hold captive is pressure on game developers to have to submit to their rule to access their captive audience.

They are a middle men that parasitizes developers and gamers for the utility of "convenience" but its their market dominance that prevents less heinous alternatives from emerging. SteamOS was the closest we saw and even that Valve wasn't willing to invest that much into given its less profitable than the fully proprietary contemporaries.

Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by vvanders on Sunday May 10, 2020 @12:00PM (#23133607)
You're missing the fact that the lower costs of consoles(and support surrounding them) are subsidized by the restrictions that you're railing against.

Take the switch, if you wanted to sell it as an "open" platform my guess is Nintendo would have to price it $75-100 higher. That's a huge shift in what consumers are willing to buy and my guess is it would be a lot less successful as a platform.

Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by zanny on Sunday May 10, 2020 @01:54PM (#23134550)
The Switch is a direct successor in a line of Nvidia tablets that were regularly priced at $200-$250. That being said, I'm not sure about its profit margin.

But I know for a fact that since launch the Xbone and PS4 were profitable. They were never sold as a loss leader.

Especially now, after all 3 have been out for years, none are losing money. They are all profitable when sold and then infinite money machines by acting as a tax on developers and consumers.

Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by vvanders on Sunday May 10, 2020 @02:19PM (#23134738)
The NRE on consoles is pretty high, for the Nvidia tablets all the upfront costs of the OS have been fronted by Google and Nvidia hasn't been able to position their SoCs as a competitive processor given there have been almost no designs aside from their in-house products.

If wide open hardware and appstore was a recipe for success Android would be a clear winner. However if you want to ship a title where you get the most out of the platform and you can rely on the platform to be stable from both HW and SW perspective then curating that space seems to be a recipe for success.

It's be really neat if all the console hardware was wide open, however there's a bunch of hurdles there that tend to lead towards curated platforms being more successful.

Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by shmerl on Sunday May 10, 2020 @01:41PM (#23134443)
Yes, their business model is sick with anti-competitve tactics, DRM and other despicable methods that are all aimed against users and developers. NDA is just some cream on top of the pile of manure.
Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by pjmlp on Sunday May 10, 2020 @01:38AM (#23130552)
Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by greggman3 on Sunday May 10, 2020 @07:49AM (#23131926)
Not really all that different from Apple. You're not allowed to develop for iOS/tvOS without an Apple Developer License and signing the TOS.
Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by RobertKerans on Sunday May 10, 2020 @05:45AM (#23131419)
Look, the tears of the world are a constant quantity. For each one who begins to weep somewhere else another stops. The same is true of the laugh. Let us not then speak ill of our console generation, it is not any unhappier than its predecessors. Let us not speak well of it either. Let us not speak of it at all.
Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by pjmlp on Sunday May 10, 2020 @01:35AM (#23130539)
No thanks, we already have enough garbage on iOS, Play Store, Steam and HTML 5 gaming web sites.
Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by alpaca128 on Sunday May 10, 2020 @02:42AM (#23130756)
The consoles have enough garbage as well. Like "life of black tiger" which is a bad console port of a horrible mobile game. Its trailer is featured on the official PlayStation channel even though it's apparently using copyrighted background music without permission. Nobody knows why Sony allowed this all to happen.

But to be fair the Play Store definitely has more of such low-quality games.

Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by pjmlp on Sunday May 10, 2020 @03:01AM (#23130836)
Yes, the quality net has holes in it, and since 1983 not all decisions were done correctly.

Yet it is still better than not having a net at all, leading to a bunch of "Hello World" games, half finished game demos, copy cats that dilute branding.

Alone on iOS there are around 3000 submissions per month on average, even taking around 50% away for updates, it still leaves us with an enormous amount of low quality games to triage, per month.

https://www.pocketgamer.biz/metrics/app-store/submissions/

Not even the modern variants of Crash!, YourSinclar, Amiga Format can keep up with such submission rate.

Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by cycloptic on Sunday May 10, 2020 @06:31AM (#23131599)
I don't buy that as a justification to create a walled-garden. Curation and quality control don't require locking everything down; it doesn't make the manual review process any less expensive.

What it does do is make it less expensive to exert total control over the associated branding. This might seem like a good thing for customers if this branding wasn't already for sale to the the highest bidder, but it is. The practice of hardware manufacturers paying for exclusives proves this.

Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by pjmlp on Sunday May 10, 2020 @06:44AM (#23131633)
Yes it is, we are just back in 1983 in what concerns play stores.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_crash_of_1983

Game publishers love exclusives, it means there is no way copy cats land on the same medium.

For example, how Naughty Dog tried to turn Crash Bandicoot into Sony's mascot against Sega's Sonic.

"Crash Bandicoot Co-Creator Andy Gavin: Extended Interview"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSHj5UKSylk

It is ironic how disparate these kind of discussions on HN feel versus the general themes on game developer forums, magazines and conferences.

Same thing with APIs, on game developer universe "what cool things can I do with it", here "boo yet another way for the man to subjugate us".

Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by cycloptic on Sunday May 10, 2020 @06:55AM (#23131673)
The play store is not really relevant to what I was talking about because it is intentionally not curated. There will always be at least one place like this where the developers who can't afford the expensive fees to get on the curated stores will congregate. It also seems irrelevant to me to keep referring to the "crash of 1983" when that was very obviously caused by Atari having a monopoly, i.e. the exact opposite of there being an open market for hardware.

I personally have avoided many game development communities for exactly the reasons you describe — overly extreme fear of "copy cats" to the point of paranoia, coupled with way too much enthusiasm to adopt certain pieces of cargo-culted technology without considering the question of who will support it and for how long. I think Godot is a step in the right direction, but it will take these companies time to let go of these other APIs that cost them high prices just for the privilege of being able to read the documentation. They are not immune to these price dynamics.

Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by Supermancho on Wednesday May 13, 2020 @11:36PM (#23174980)
> should switch to the new century already and drop all their NDA garbage.

> we already have enough garbage

That's not an issue of NDAs but discovery (or lack of curation). NDAs may exist as a proxy for some companies, but that's still a separate issue that can be addressed in the vacuum.

Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by RussianCow on Sunday May 10, 2020 @02:48AM (#23130779)
Nobody is asking you to play the garbage. At least on those platforms you have the option to play whatever you want, unlike consoles where you can only play games that managed to secure a deal with the manufacturer.
Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by pjmlp on Sunday May 10, 2020 @03:03AM (#23130845)
And yet people love to buy consoles, and game studios love to target them, go figure.

This is like complaining about what Apple allows or not on their platforms, if you are not happy give your money to someone else.

Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by shmerl on Sunday May 10, 2020 @01:38PM (#23134424)
Lock-in proponents like NDAs, I'm sure. No one else like this garbage.
Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by pjmlp on Sunday May 10, 2020 @01:56PM (#23134565)
Some material to educate yourself about how things roll in the industry, instead of the usual rainbows and minibus speech.

https://www.gdcvault.com/

https://igda.org/

https://www.mcvuk.com/

https://www.gamesradar.com/edge/

https://rebootdevelop.com/

https://www.makinggames.biz/

https://dev.paxsite.com

https://igf.com/

https://www.assembly.org/

https://2020.revision-party.net

Now if you refuse to accept how things work fine, but then do something about it instead of cursing and trolling everyone that actually have experience in the industry.

I don't know, create an association, start a movement or something else.

If no one likes the garbage as you say, it won't be hard to get people to join your cause, after all it takes one person to change the world.

Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by shmerl on Sunday May 10, 2020 @01:58PM (#23134577)
From the previous discussions, it's pretty pointless to debate proper development practices with lock-in proponents. They don't get it or if they do, but they don't care, since they are after anti-user practices by design.
Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by pjmlp on Sunday May 10, 2020 @02:13PM (#23134684)
To me it looks more like it isn't that easy to gather people to your cause as you affirm.

After all you argue against everyone like myself, with games development experience, as apparent in several games related forums on Reddit and who knows where else, and yet don't get anyone to pay attention.

Yes I am perfectly alright defending industry practices, try to offend me won't change anything on the games industry.

If you want to change anything start a revolution, writing comments is easy.

Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by shmerl on Sunday May 10, 2020 @02:21PM (#23134757)
I call anti-user practices what they are, instead of whitewashing this trash. Since you are defending them, don't be surprised.
Re:Godot 4.0 will get a new lightmapper by pjmlp on Monday May 11, 2020 @01:59AM (#23139270)
What keeps surprising me is how angry you are against the industry, and yet are unable to do anything useful to our society besides writing rants on online forums.

After all I would expect that with such energy we would have seen you at some GDC(E) teaching us the true path, leading the way out of the slavery from game development industry practices.

But no, we get rants on online forums instead.