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Re:SARS-CoV-2 was already spreading in France in late Decemb... by jcranmer on Monday May 04, 2020 @10:50PM (#23075895)
> Vegas also doesn't have a subway system, which was cited as why it spread so rapidly in NY.

There's no real evidence to support the thesis that the MTA was a primary vector of spread in NYC. Granular data of infection rate by neighborhood is spotty, but the data that does exist doesn't show any clear trends towards increased infection rates nearer subway lines. And the borough with the highest infection rate is the borough with the least transit ridership, and the borough with the lowest infection rate is that with the highest transit ridership...

(Source cite: https://pedestrianobservations.com/2020/04/15/the-subway-is-...).

Re:SARS-CoV-2 was already spreading in France in late Decemb... by totalZero on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @03:54AM (#23077568)
Living in proximity to a subway line doesn't necessarily mean you spend more time on the subway than people who live further away, nor does it mean that you use the subway more. Subway commuters who can't afford to live close to a subway line probably live further from their workplaces, too, which would mean they spend more time on the subway and have more transfers between lines. Those people may then carry germs back to their neighborhoods.

The subway is a shared space with poor air quality and many hard surfaces that are touched by many people every hour.

The blog post you are "citing" tries to draw conclusions by zip code in a map that is not granular enough to support the claims. You yourself acknowledge this so I'm not sure why you use that blog post as evidence.

Also, Jeff Harris (the MIT professor who wrote the paper with which the blogger disagrees) is a doctor as well as being an economist. That doesn't mean he is infallible, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss his thoughts.

Re:SARS-CoV-2 was already spreading in France in late Decemb... by simonh on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @05:39AM (#23078165)
Agreed, boroughs with high transit ridership are going to be the big hubs, but very few of the people going through those hubs live in the immediate vicinity of the hub, and the people who do live in that vicinity may not have a lot of direct contact with those commuters. The whole problem with transmission through subway transit is that the people using that transit scatter to all and every corner of the region and beyond. They don't stay concentrated in the immediate vicinity of the transit system.

I use an inner city transit system every day on my usual commute, but the transit system hub I access it from is about 15 miles away from where I live. I use a bus and then a regional train network to get to it, then go into the underground.

Re:SARS-CoV-2 was already spreading in France in late Decemb... by cameldrv on Monday May 04, 2020 @11:27PM (#23076167)
I think it’s pretty clear that having a large portion of the city spend an hour a day packed together with 80 or so other people is going to increase transmission from a droplet spread disease.
Re:SARS-CoV-2 was already spreading in France in late Decemb... by jcranmer on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @12:23AM (#23076466)
As opposed to people living packed together in dense apartment blocks? Or working in crowded office blocks? Or spending leisure time in crowded recreational facilities? Or shopping in crowded stories? Or eating in crowded restaurants?

Yes, subways are crowded, but so is everything else in NYC. As for why NYC is doing much worse than other comparably dense cities worldwide, my thesis is that it's a failure at all levels of civic participation (federal, state, local, and even residential and commercial proprietors) to be proactive in counteracting the spread of coronavirus.

Re:SARS-CoV-2 was already spreading in France in late Decemb... by dba7dba on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @01:22AM (#23076788)
Below case study of Covid-19 spreading in a call center in middle of Seoul is pretty illuminating.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/30/opinions/eye-opening-south-ko...

The case study covers infections in a 19-story mixed commercial-residential building. First case was reported on March 9, 2020. The office seating diagram provided in the article shows extended (10 min or 1hr not sure), very close proximity spacing physically is the main reason for the spread.

Note that this was a call center so people were sitting and talking without masks on for extended periods.

* On March 9, one day after the first cases were reported, the entire building was closed. Testing was performed almost immediately on 1,143 people (workers, residents and a few visitors) with rapid results available to those affected and the team working to control the situation. The testing showed that 97 people (8.5% of those occupying the building) were infected. Most of the cases were women in their 30s and almost all (94 of the 97) worked on the 11th floor of the building, in the call center.*

I counted colored seats in the diagram and found 84 people in the call center got infected.

I think NYC got hit particularly hard because of subway cars. Enclosed in nearly airtight space for 10 - 30 minutes at a time.

Re:SARS-CoV-2 was already spreading in France in late Decemb... by cameldrv on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @02:56AM (#23077252)
More people in a single apartment will definitely increase spread. I'm not sure small apartments per se make any difference unless the ventilation is interconnected. I'm not sure how common that is.

I agree that everything is more crowded in NYC, but the only thing I can think of more crowded than a subway car is a nightclub. Estimating from ridership numbers, the average New Yorker rides the subway 15-30 minutes per day. The ceilings aren't even that high, just the number of people per unit volume is incredible.

One of the case studies I saw showed it spreading on a long distance bus between people sitting four rows away from each other.

Re:SARS-CoV-2 was already spreading in France in late Decemb... by runawaybottle on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @12:57AM (#23076667)
https://youtu.be/R5K5ZBDPB3g

That’s rush hour. Let’s not kid ourselves.

Re:SARS-CoV-2 was already spreading in France in late Decemb... by jcranmer on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @01:04AM (#23076702)
Have you seen what the street above that station (note the station name) looks like during non-rush-hour situations? It's still that crowded.

(I'll also point out that you picked literally the busiest station on the entire system to use as an example.)

Re:SARS-CoV-2 was already spreading in France in late Decemb... by runawaybottle on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @01:13AM (#23076750)
Just a quick YouTube search. I’m a life long long New Yorker, I can promise you that’s not the busiest. I can try to find you some video of the 7 line, it’s like that all the way from Grand Central to Main Street Flushing during rush hour.

The thing about the subway is that we all try to hold onto a pole or bar, total vectors for the spread. It’s not just an obvious case of being near each other, we’re forced to touch the same surfaces so we don’t collide every 30 seconds.

Re:SARS-CoV-2 was already spreading in France in late Decemb... by jcranmer on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @01:21AM (#23076786)
MTA says Times Square is the busiest station, by a not-even-close margin (63M annual versus 44M for #2): http://web.mta.info/nyct/facts/ridership/ridership_sub_annua...
Re:SARS-CoV-2 was already spreading in France in late Decemb... by runawaybottle on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @01:30AM (#23076820)
Ah right, I didn’t even check to see the station. My larger point is there are many many stations that look just like that during rush hour.
Re:SARS-CoV-2 was already spreading in France in late Decemb... by jcranmer on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @01:37AM (#23076847)
I don't doubt you. But my larger point is that there are plenty of other situations in NYC where there's sufficient crowding for coronavirus spread.
Re:SARS-CoV-2 was already spreading in France in late Decemb... by foobarian on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @07:20AM (#23078775)
Well, it may move the most riders, but if it has more trains the cars may not end up as crowded. OK way into nitpicking territory now :)
Re:SARS-CoV-2 was already spreading in France in late Decemb... by jgwil2 on Monday May 04, 2020 @11:49PM (#23076300)
Interesting hypothesis. We should sill look at the evidence before stating it as fact.
Re:SARS-CoV-2 was already spreading in France in late Decemb... by cameldrv on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @12:16AM (#23076427)
In Wuhan, 11% of traced contacts came back to transport. One thing that might help would be to open the windows in the subway cars.
Re:SARS-CoV-2 was already spreading in France in late Decemb... by ancientworldnow on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @01:59AM (#23076959)
Rush hour cars have 200+ people in them and essentially no air circulation. Generally you're just inches away from people if you aren't outright touching.
Re:SARS-CoV-2 was already spreading in France in late Decemb... by runawaybottle on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @12:54AM (#23076651)
No one actually lives in the borough with the most ridership, they just work there.

Rush hour on a subway is about as close as your going to get (no pun intended) to a clear cut ‘yep, this is how it spread’.

Re:SARS-CoV-2 was already spreading in France in late Decemb... by freepor on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @02:03AM (#23076981)
The idea that a subway system like New York's (or even more, London's) is NOT a major vehicle of disease transmission is an extraordinary claim that requires evidence more extraordinary than this.