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Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by twomoretime on Thursday April 30, 2020 @12:20PM (#23032606)
>There are lots of difficult fields to study that just don't pay well due to competition

That may be the case, but speaking as a recent young person, the vast majority of college students I met did no actual research regarding the employability of their majors.

It's also a disservice to group soft and hard sciences together under STEM - because you end up with millions of children who can't hack it in math, but they hear that psychology or sociology are STEM and therefore a meal ticket, and end up taking out loans for a worthless degree simply because they had it drilled in their heads that they needed to go to college and major in something "useful".

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by syedkarim on Thursday April 30, 2020 @12:47PM (#23032986)
Why is this being downvoted? Strange.

I graduated in 2007 and your observation is the same as mine. Students go to school without really thinking about what is next. I'm guessing that is a result of a middle/upper middle class upbringing. I noticed international students were a lot more driven, on average. I went to a small, liberal arts college that was not highly selective in admissions.

Even with the talented and studious, very few had any real idea of what was next. Why do we encourage so much debt just for the supposed sake of edification.

I will say, though, that it was a really fun time in my life. So maybe that's worth it?

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by TuringNYC on Thursday April 30, 2020 @04:40PM (#23035829)
I think lots of it is due to bad biased advice. True story, on my first day of college, at the convocation, the university president told his true story about how he decided to stay at university for an extra year "to study the classics" and what an amazing decision this was for him. He encouraged everyone to seek erudition.

I wonder how many students accepted that as fact. Because it is indeed a great strategy if you are wealthy and have a social-network safety net waiting to bail you out with a nice job after graduation. But for working class students like myself, it is horrible advice. I couldn't have graduated a moment too soon, I need to help my mom with rent, pay loans, etc.

You have wealthy "successful" academics and others giving advice that is noble but unrealistic and downright harmful in some cases.

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by 0d9eooo on Thursday April 30, 2020 @01:37PM (#23033571)
It's more complicated, and a deeper problem than that.

For example, I'm one of those former psych majors, and though those majors are full of people who aren't good at math, there's also a lot of them who know more computer science and math than some of the comp sci majors I've worked with. In fact, a common problem for psych majors and other students is to take the first couple of psych courses, think it's a breeze, and then hit advanced courses with cognitive modeling, neuroscience, epidemiology, and genetics, and realize it is basically STEM.

The problem with this is that everyone who took those first couple of classes, or didn't, has this stereotype of psych as all involving people laying around on couches discussing past lives or something. So you might have a psych major who did a thesis involving neural network models and cognition, maybe with some imaging involving a cutting edge system in the imaging center, working with physicists, and they will get looked down on by employers. Meanwhile the comp sci undergrad who barely gets python and did their group final project on some kind of toy webapp is qualified.

I have family who are making significant money in web development who are actually English majors, who just happened to have the right connections at the right time. When I was in undergrad, comp sci was filled with a glut of unmotivated students who just wanted a degree for a job, and we were all being told that there wasn't going to be demand for comp sci degrees because there would be too many grads in it and you could always learn that stuff through different means. My father, who is now in medical administration with an MD, talked me out of biochem and biology degrees because he couldn't find employment with those degrees and had to go on to grad school.

So what do we make of a degree? Does my dad's biochem degree suddenly become more valuable when it's a stepping stone to an MD program? Did that family member with a "worthless" liberal arts degree waste their money when they're making a comfortable income in the tech sector?

The deeper problem is that people are seen one-dimensionally, as equal to some degree, rather than their experiences, like college is some glorified vocational certification program.

Whenever we talk about "worthwhile" versus "worthless" degrees at some level what we're accepting is this idea that someone's skillset is defined by the degree, rather than the degree being an indicator of part of a skillset.

Society used to see things in the latter way, and at some point it transitioned to the former.

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by verall on Thursday April 30, 2020 @01:46PM (#23033703)
I'd say a bigger problem isn't that undergraduate psych is easy, but rather just that _so many_ students that don't really know what they want to do take it, causing like a permanent glut of psych undergrads.

My major was also very popular, but about 1/3 students in computer engineering drop or switch majors, most after the first year. Fair or not weedouts and things to reduce the glut of undergrads. At least at my school the graduation rate for the psych school was way higher.

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by danbolt on Thursday April 30, 2020 @02:19PM (#23034174)
Reading your comment really affected me just now. I work in the video games industry, and since entry-level positions are quite competitive (video games are quite popular with younger folks), people make a lot of decisions to take a focused, employer-attractive, career path to be hired. Firms will often hire aspiring designers that have worked doing QA for a few years as well as programmers that have spent a lot of time intentionally studying C++ and rendering.

I appreciate the effort and enthusiasm my coworkers have, but sometimes I feel like the expertise in the industry is too overspecialized. Perhaps it's a product of larger-budget games being more conservative by financial/organizational necessity, but I'd appreciate if the people working there were more well-rounded. I would love more game designers to have a liberal-arts background to inject into their ideas.

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by twomoretime on Thursday April 30, 2020 @03:26PM (#23035027)
>The deeper problem is that people are seen one-dimensionally, as equal to some degree, rather than their experiences, like college is some glorified vocational certification program.

This wasn't a problem when college was an exclusive program with standards that maintained prestige. Those standards have been gradually eroding as we faced collective political and corporate pressure to "open college up to everybody."

Intelligence and ability are heavily skewed distributions. The purpose of college was once to develop and certify those near the top. Now we're in some weird PC transition zone where standards have been lowered (this is evidenced by the fact that the distribution of intelligence has not changed, but nearly 50% of people have a degree).

Imagine if we decided that everyone needed to learn and play basketball and started letting everyone into the NBA. Imagine what would happen to the sport if we decided there were too many straight black men playing and we needed better representation of women and other groups. Sure, if you institute society-wide training, people on average might get a little at basketball, but nothing will change the fact that a tiny percentage of the population is able to play at a professional competitive later.

The only difference here is that intelligence is far less visible. There's far more room for decades of excuses and second chances when we have drilled into two generations now that anyone is capable of being a rocket scientist and all we need to do is go to school and try. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by mettamage on Thursday April 30, 2020 @05:57PM (#23036669)
I don't fully agree with your post, but you do make some good points. In The Netherlands I have seen some majors go downhill (hello psychology!), while others became a bit tougher actually (hello computer science!).

In the Netherlands though, what I've noticed is that high school was tough (if you did STEM high school that is). IMO, high school was way tougher than university, considering the skills you had at the time and effort you needed to put in.

Even computer science is a cake walk compared to that, because at university people tend to be more motivated than in high school.

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by chillacy on Thursday April 30, 2020 @07:01PM (#23037264)
Just to put numbers on that, nothing pays off quite like science and engineering: https://studentloanhero.com/featured/majors-students-debt/
Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by tengbretson on Thursday April 30, 2020 @01:07PM (#23033215)
I truly believe that it should be illegal for state-funded universities to collect tuition from students that are "undecided" in their major.
Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by mikeg8 on Thursday April 30, 2020 @03:58PM (#23035379)
So students remain undecided as long as possible to enroll in as many undergrad classes as possible? your proposition makes no sense to me. I believe as an 18 year old, you need to begin seriously taking responsibility for your decisions, and if you choose to go to school, you absolutely should pay for it. the cost argument is totally separate, colleges should be much more affordable IMO, but there shouldn't be free rides for remaining "undeclared", that would have perverse incentives.
Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by tengbretson on Thursday April 30, 2020 @04:57PM (#23036025)
I guess what I said was too ambiguous. What I meant was that undecided or undeclared should not even be allowed to go to university
Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by alistairSH on Thursday April 30, 2020 @05:11PM (#23036182)
I'm not sure I agree with that. I was undecided for 2 years (of the typical 4 at a US institution). It wasn't a problem and didn't cost me anything. Expecting an 18 year old to commit to a program seems a bit excessive (yes, we do it for professional programs like nursing and engineering - but not all students are the same, both of those programs have high wash-out rates, and at least with engineering, if you get a job doing other things).