News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by notacoward on Monday April 27, 2020 @07:15PM (#23001299)
My worry with pieces like this is that they're meant to encourage intellectual diversity in scientific discourse, but some people will undoubtedly try to use them as "teach the controversy!" to justify any kind of crazy non-scientific idea. How do we teach people to draw that line? Or is that a lost cause?
Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by ravitation on Monday April 27, 2020 @07:36PM (#23001514)
Well, one issue, is that this article (and many like it) only address controversy, and not whether a given controversy is warranted by evidence. I think it's important in discussing intellectual diversity to emphasize that going against established thought requires compelling evidence, usually rightfully so.

It also doesn't help that their only example of intellectual diversity is itself flawed, and not convincing, even to the authors.

Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by SuoDuanDao on Monday April 27, 2020 @08:30PM (#23001958)
Scientific discourse is based on the assumption that all parties have the basic reading comprehension to look at the primary data.

I'm not really worried about creationism or climate stabilism competing given those conditions. And if those aren't the conditions, it's not scientific discourse.

Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by ravitation on Monday April 27, 2020 @08:47PM (#23002062)
Others are not so discerning in what they think is scientific discourse.
Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by SuoDuanDao on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @06:37AM (#23005611)
If anyone who feels that way would like to suggest a neologism for the sort of discourse I describe, I'd be open to using it - I do feel the term 'scientific discourse' has been watered down a fair bit.
Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by ravitation on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @06:40PM (#23012991)
My point wasn't that I necessarily have a different view on what scientific discourse is; my point was that someone who is less discerning might see a discussion of one of the views you listed and see valid scientific discourse.

The issue is not that scientists, or discerning non-scientists, will take those views seriously, it's that others might (or will, or do). Hence the issue is not with defining scientific discourse, it's with educating a population to be able to apply that definition (or formulate their own functional individual ones).

[dead]
Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by hannasanarion on Monday April 27, 2020 @09:45PM (#23002436)
This comment shows a shocking lack of scientific literacy.

You can't "disprove" data. Data are the root facts that science is based on, and all data from trustworthy sources is treated the same by all scientists. Nobody ever "disproves" data.

What can be proven or disproven are hypotheses, the truths about underlying mechanisms of the world that we seek to learn about through data. A hypothesis about how something behaves can be proven or disproven with data, the data itself is absolute truth. A good hypothesis explains the data that we see, a bad one will be contradicted by data collection.

There is no such thing as "just a theory". In common parlance sure, but in scientific speech "theory" is a technical term that refers to a hypothesis that has stood up to all feasible tests that could have disproven it. Gravity is a phenomenon, observed by lots of data, all of which discovered so far confirms the theory of general relativity, upgraded from hypothesis after gravitational bending of light (which the hypothesis predicted)was observed in 1919.

Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by drummer on Monday April 27, 2020 @10:02PM (#23002559)
Data can be fake or manipulated though. And in the case of covid-19, a lot of the data is highly questionable.

"The figures are questionable Angelo Borrelli, the head of Civil Protection, who announces the latest figures every day at 6 p.m., said Saturday night that the 793 new deaths have been caused “by and with” the coronavirus. “We count all the dead, we make no distinction between with and by the coronavirus.” However, one wonders whether these daily figures reflect the situation correctly. The dead are said to have almost all had one or more other diseases, which leaves a question mark as to exactly how deadly the coronavirus is. At the same time, it has become clear that a large number of people who die at home (which is often a retirement home) do not undergo a coronavirus test." https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2020/03/22/als-italie-het-voorland...

Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by hannasanarion on Monday April 27, 2020 @10:27PM (#23002695)
That paragraph is questioning the conclusion: how deadly the virus is, not the data: how many people died and how.

Seeking an alternate explanation for the data, which is what scientists do, is not the same as denying the data, which is what zealots do.

Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by drummer on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @07:41AM (#23006014)
It also questions the data, for example, the fact that even elderly dying at home without having been tested at all for COVID-19 (!!!) being counted as COVID-19 deaths. This is something I come across in more countries including the USA where various doctors have protested against policies that almost force them to include COVID-19 on death certificates. It's as if they want to artificially inflate the numbers to make COVID-19 seem a lot worse than it is. Watch this interview with Dr. Dan Erickson and Dr. Artin Massihi of Bakersfield, CA.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmjYRJXKixY
Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by snowwrestler on Monday April 27, 2020 @11:02PM (#23002877)
While it is academically interesting to try to apportion blame between COVID-19 and underlying conditions, the basic fact on the ground is an anomalous rise in illnesses requiring critical care and resulting in death.

This has been true since the first alarm bells in China, and has spread to other nations in a way that is easily observed first-hand, clearly reported by front-line medical staff, and consistent with the spread of a new disease.

That obvious data is what populations and governments are reacting to, not some calculated IFR.

Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by magicalhippo on Monday April 27, 2020 @11:22PM (#23002999)
> You can't "disprove" data.

In the interest of correctness, yes you can.

To disprove means "to prove to be false or wrong"[1], and that's exactly what the OPERA collaboration did to their own data that showed super-luminal neutrinos, when they later discovered it was caused by a bad fiber connection[2].

There's also the case of BICEP2[3], where the raw data was not in dispute, but rather the inevitable post-processing required to extract the "science signal" from the raw data.

This is of course why scientists prefer to have multiple independent measurements of the same phenomena, to eliminate possible sources of error and bias. The LHC for example has two independent main detectors[4], built by different teams using different approaches, for this very reason.

That said, at least in the physical sciences (I don't follow life sciences as closely), cases like OPERA and BICEP2 are exceptions.

[1]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disprove

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light_neutrino_ano...

[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BICEP_and_Keck_Array#BICEP2

[4]: https://home.cern/science/experiments

Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by wolco on Monday April 27, 2020 @10:04PM (#23002570)
Trying to label someone without engaging in critical thinking that involves understanding what you memorized is being dishonest to yourself. I will say it again. A theory is just a theory.. just the most accepted story.

Gravity is a theory (an explaination) of an observable phenonmenon. It is the accepted story until a more compelling story comes around.

Some popular theories that were disproven:

Fleischmann–Pons’s Nuclear Fusion

Phrenology

The Blank Slate

Luminiferous Aether

To your other point. Data is constantly being re-examined. How accurate is the Data is. What the data is really examining are extremely important and change.

Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by hannasanarion on Monday April 27, 2020 @10:17PM (#23002636)
Data is re-analyzed in the context of new data and improved hypotheses. Data is not "disproven" as you claimed. There may be several ways to explain an observation, and some of the explanations can be shown to be wrong, but the observation itself never can.

After the discovery of standard candles, when the map of the universe was completely reconceptualized, nothing ever changed about astronomical data: observations of stellar position and brightness. What had changed was the explanation for those brightnesses and the meanings attributed to them. The data stays the same, the explanation changes, and if an explanation doesn't match the data, like the milky-way-is-the-universe hypothesis, then it's a bad explanation.

Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by wolco on Monday April 27, 2020 @10:30PM (#23002707)
What about false reporting?
Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by dwaltrip on Monday April 27, 2020 @09:51PM (#23002477)
Do you understand the challenge you are taking upon yourself when you are trying to argue that climate change is not a severe concern? Might as well argue that the Earth is flat.

You might think that we are all just wrong. But here's the thing. The vast, vast majority of scientifically literate people in the world believe that climate change is an enormous risk to human prosperity. There might be some disagreement on exactly what the nature of the risk is. But everyone agrees it is a huge problem that must be confronted.

Because we are the overwhelming majority, you need to convince us using very articulate, compelling arguments and the highest-quality analysis. And you need to deal with the fact that most people will assume you are either ignorant or ideologically motivated to misinterpret the evidence -- because, to our eyes, that's exactly what people who compose comments like yours are (and it gets really old after a while).

By posting angsty messages that offer no value from a scientific standpoint, you are admitting defeat from the start.

Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by wolco on Monday April 27, 2020 @10:35PM (#23002738)
I'm not even making the point climate change is not severe or that gravity doesn't exist.

Just that we need to be open enough to accept a new conflicting theory and not fight against it.

Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by dwaltrip on Monday April 27, 2020 @10:54PM (#23002838)
We should only consider an alternative theory if there are compelling reasons to do so.
Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by magicalhippo on Monday April 27, 2020 @11:28PM (#23003026)
> If data was presented today that conflicted with your existing views you would try to label and disprove it.

Trying to disprove new data that conflicts with your existing views is fine, as long as you can accept the new data if it holds up to scrutiny.

It isn't about being right, it's about accepting to be wrong.

Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by duckMuppet on Monday April 27, 2020 @09:02PM (#23002159)
Well said. I'm not sure the good religious folks here who are evidently big believers in the Rona calamity can fully comprehend your ideas though. For most here, i suspect it's a bridge to far.
Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by wolco on Monday April 27, 2020 @09:47PM (#23002448)
That science should be neutral? I would hope some would be seeking that path. The idea that science is evolving with every experiment/test we attempt. To freeze on a single point of view is belief (religion) instead of fact (science).

Hopefully that bridge isn't too far for most.

Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by ayakura on Monday April 27, 2020 @07:34PM (#23001490)
> How do we teach people to draw that line

By teaching people to recognize where faulty data are and how they were collected. I always encourage people to look at several sources of news and figure out conclusions on their own, ignoring potential bias. [0]

It's never a lost cause to emphasize the importance of digging through an academic paper or a news article, effectively doing their own research instead of just listening to figureheads and looking through headlines.

[0]: https://www.allsides.com/media-bias/how-to-spot-types-of-med...

Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by ceejayoz on Monday April 27, 2020 @07:48PM (#23001620)
This makes us susceptible to what's essentially a Gish gallop, though. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop, for those unfamiliar.)

It takes inordinately more time and knowledge to debunk a false claim than it does to make it.

Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by taneq on Monday April 27, 2020 @08:46PM (#23002056)
Also worth noting that false claims need not be malicious to serve as a DOS attack. An army of untrained ‘researchers’ drawing improbable conclusions from randomly combined snippets of scientific papers can generate a huge amount of pseudoscientific ‘sourced-looking’ ideas.

Unfortunately it takes a lot more effort to actually understand a paper then to ‘just throw it out there’.

Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by yters on Monday April 27, 2020 @08:44PM (#23002040)
What is the line between scientific and non-scientific idea?
[dead]
Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by toofy on Monday April 27, 2020 @08:40PM (#23002012)
> Why are you afraid of non-scientific ideas?

I’m not sure where you got the idea that people are afraid of non-scientific ideas–I see them discussed all over online everyday by thousands and thousands of people. No one is afraid of them, we just don’t consider them to be science. There should always remain a sharp dividing line between non-scientific/scientific and for good reason.

Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by sbussard on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @01:54AM (#23003864)
> There should always remain a sharp dividing line between non-scientific/scientific and for good reason.

That is a patronizing statement. If science can't defend itself then we're more screwed than we thought. Truth exists outside of Science (to state otherwise would not be a scientific statement, thus a contradiction). That leaves room for crack pot theories to potentially have truth in them. To bar them or dismiss them based off personal bias is crime against healthy intellectual discourse. Who is imposing irrational beliefs on whom? That is where the sharp dividing line should be drawn.

Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by zeroxfe on Monday April 27, 2020 @08:20PM (#23001892)
GP specified in scientific discourse. It's fine to discuss non-scientific ideas -- just don't call it out as science.
Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by hannasanarion on Monday April 27, 2020 @09:46PM (#23002442)
Peer review is not censorship.
Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by sbussard on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @02:05AM (#23003927)
Unfortunately that is not entirely accurate. Even rigorous non-controversial scientific papers have been rejected due to their contradiction of current trends, resource constraints, etc. Science has politics too. Anyone who's done research to fulfill a science directorate should be wise to that fact.
Re:Let's hear scientists with different Covid-19 views, not ... by Frondo on Monday April 27, 2020 @08:59PM (#23002136)
Well, I'm not afraid of non-scientific ideas, but I am afraid of the harms they cause. Anecdotally, I've lost a couple of family members due to secret-style law-of-attraction attempts at fixing curable (by medical science) illnesses. Kind of a bummer, but it's a free country and we can't compel people to take medical treatments when they think they can wish away the cancer.

I'm also afraid of the measurable societal harms caused by, e.g. the anti-vax movement, where preventable illnesses are making a comeback due to non-scientific belief in the hazards of vaccination.

I don't know how to get anti-vax sentiments out of the mainstream discourse, but I think the world would not be any less intellectually rich, in any meaningful sense of the concept, if no one ever thought those thoughts, and caused harmful policies to be carried out, again.

Right now, of course, I accept it as "gotta take the bad with the good" but that doesn't mean I like that things like childhood measles are on the rise in various anti-vax hotspots; especially because these aren't informed adults opting out of vaccines, but ill-informed parents making decisions for their children that do have serious impacts on childhood health and the potential for serious harms later in life.

I certainly don't see the need to defend some ideas as holding promise for progress ("we could have cured your measles as a child, but some guy made up a story out of his head and that's why you have shingles now") when they are very much regressive ideas.