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Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by Scramblejams on Sunday April 26, 2020 @08:11PM (#22991584)
I have no knowledge of this particular situation, but...

Before I worked in aerospace as a structural engineer, I couldn't understand why airplanes are as expensive as they are.

Once I'd worked in aerospace as a structural engineer, I couldn't understand why airplanes aren't more expensive than they are.

I worked in stress analysis, where you'd analyze a part of an airplane to determine whether it fulfilled strength/fatigue life requirements. At this stage, the part's already been designed. So you take the part's material properties, geometry, surface preparation and coatings, machined features, and so on, and check it against anywhere from a few dozen to many thousands of load scenarios. You find the handful of critical load cases, and then you write up the analysis against those. The analysis is intended to be mostly self-contained, readable by any qualified engineer, and serve as a complete treatment of the part's structural sufficiency. It's not much of an exaggeration to say that every single structural component of an airplane is backed up by a stress analysis report running somewhere between 20 and 400 pages, written by one or more degreed engineers making what was, in the U.S. probably an average of $50-60/hr. Airliners are made up of many, many structural parts. The costs of proving the safety of those parts add up quickly.

Now, if I had to guess, instruction manuals are probably a bit cheaper to produce. Tech writers probably aren't as well compensated as engineers. But a lot of engineers' time will be eaten up nonetheless. (I once spent a memorable few weeks (!) proving that a dowel pin on a part that hadn't been machined correctly would not, during installation, shear off, so that existing installation documentation could still be used. Yay. After that I was known as the office dowel pin SME.) Good maintenance documents sweat the details and require input from designers, stress analysts, manufacturing engineers, supply chain representatives, and others. And then as the design evolves -- the design always evolves on the way to delivering a product -- these documents must be tweaked, added to, subtracted from, sometimes entirely rewritten, and those changes must be checked by a variety of folks.

So, $84 million for 100,000 pages might sound like a lot. But for what is in many ways a custom built aircraft, with divergences from the base aircraft that probably run into the millions, to me, it doesn't seem ridiculous.

Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by WalterBright on Sunday April 26, 2020 @09:24PM (#22992031)
Former Boeing flight controls engineer here. Nice to see a stress guy!

I'm always amazed that for a few hundred bucks I can fly halfway around the world in a jetliner. Anyhow, you might be amused by this incident between me and the stress guy, when I was called over to visit them:

SG: We're concerned about the parts you're designing.

WB: Um, yes?

SG: Your parts are coming in at barely 1% stronger than the Ultimate Load.

WB: So they meet the requirement. What's the problem?

SG: How did you design them?

WB: I started with the load requirement, worked backwards to size the part, and rounded up the tolerances.

SG: We don't like that. We like to see 10% over.

WB: So, you want the parts to be overweight?

SG: No, we just feel better about stronger parts.

WB: But my parts meet the requirements at minimum weight. If you'd like stronger, heavier parts, you guys need to change the requirements.

SG: !@#$%^&*(

Hope you guys aren't still mad at me :-)

Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by Scramblejams on Monday April 27, 2020 @02:14AM (#22993322)
Haha, cool, I didn't know you did that! I enjoyed the back and forth between design and stress. I worked with a lot of really good people in both departments. On one program we were told to target 11% MS, only reason I could figure it wasn't written down was so that when revised loads inevitably knocked the margins down a bit, we wouldn't have to constantly be changing the fudge factor in the reports to avoid showing a negative margin that was effectively positive.

Humor me with a tangent: I think we should go back to design doing the stress work, for the most part, with some graybeards in stress and their anointed apprentices providing guidance and verification. AFAIK we really don't have the tech tools to do that efficiently, though, and nobody wants to invest the time. Design software needs access to all of the loads, temps, material properties from mil handbook, knockdowns, everything needs to be versioned and traceable, it needs to let you choose from a large catalog of analysis methods with good FEA as a fallback, show you the updated MS and critical load cases in realtime, always move your analysis nodes with the model as you edit it, export 3D models into the stress reports that remain live when the part/loads change so it changes in the next version of the report, etc. You mentioned git elsewhere. It would be so much better to validate stress report updates by viewing a diff. I could go on. Plenty to disrupt in this market, but the incentives aren't there for more than slow incremental change. I think only somebody who's willing to sink the money and open source the result has a chance at creating a revolution in how we design airplanes.

Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by WalterBright on Monday April 27, 2020 @04:46AM (#22994071)
The 757 was the last bird drawn by hand on vellum, and the last with a wooden mockup. We mostly used calculators on formulae pulled from the Boeing Design Manual (a treasure), or derived formulae as needed. Some of the draftsmen did calculations by drawing geometric shapes and measuring them, which I'm sure is a lost art now.

We were mentored by greybeards who worked on the B-47 and 747, and sometimes would still use a slide rule. I received quite a wonderful education from those guys.

I was the first flight controls engineer, that I could tell, who stole time on a PDP-11 to much more efficiently do my work beyond what was practical with a calculator. (I was called on the carpet for that, the manager of the computer center wanted me censured for it, but my boss's boss's boss went to bat for me and told him to fork off.)

Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by NikolaeVarius on Sunday April 26, 2020 @09:59PM (#22992214)
That's surprising from the Stress Guy. The ultimate load by definition should already have the safety factor + everything else factored in. Having a requirement go over the ultimate load, means its not really the ultimate load.
Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by WalterBright on Sunday April 26, 2020 @10:45PM (#22992421)
There's always some concern that the math models correctly reflect reality. That's why there's a 50% safety factor, and it's backed up by the engineers' experience that things "look right", bench testing, and flight testing. (In early flight test, they'll tape strain gauges all over the place to see if the math predictions of the stress matches reality.)
Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by voldacar on Sunday April 26, 2020 @11:20PM (#22992591)
Did you ever experience any times when a part passed the math model, but didn't "look right"?
Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by Scramblejams on Monday April 27, 2020 @08:00PM (#23001720)
BTW, this happens all the time when using structural optimization programs, where you tell the computer what material you're using, how it's constrained and loaded, and then it figures out what it thinks is the optimal shape for the part.

It means somebody left out a load or a constraint, or messed up the material properties, which is all another way of saying the math model is wrong.

So when a part doesn't look right but seems to pass the math, be very suspicious of the math! :-)

Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by WalterBright on Sunday April 26, 2020 @11:37PM (#22992671)
Sort of. I spent much time arguing with Stress over how to calculate the torsional rigidity of the elevator structure.
Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by WalterBright on Sunday April 26, 2020 @11:46PM (#22992710)
I don't mean to be too hard on Stress. They're good guys, we both had the best interests of the design at heart. Their manager paid me a great compliment by wanting me to join their team. But I liked design work too much.
Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by kayfox on Monday April 27, 2020 @11:44PM (#23003128)
I believe that Boeing pushes for a little margin so they can revise the design without having to redesign a whole bunch of parts.
Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by tandr on Sunday April 26, 2020 @11:15PM (#22992556)
Geez Walter, you are full of surprises... When did you manage to do THAT?

(wikipedia does not have any other info, so I assumed you went to computer industry pretty much immediately after your aerospace eng degree...)

Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by WalterBright on Sunday April 26, 2020 @11:32PM (#22992646)
I spent 3 years on 757 flight controls.
Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by sandworm101 on Sunday April 26, 2020 @08:43PM (#22991795)
That's the odd thing. To provide a custom aircraft with custom parts you have to do all the analysis and testing. The person installing each part then needs the manual for that part to installing it. The creation of manuals is organic to the creation of a new aircraft. To see manuals as a separate, very expensive, line item is odd.

But we must remember a famous line from a bad movie: "You don't actually think they spend $20,000 on a hammer, $30,000 on a toilet seat, do you?" Given what this aircraft is, what it does, I think it safe to assume a high degree of vagueness and miss-labeling in the non-classified version of the budget.

Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by Scramblejams on Sunday April 26, 2020 @08:46PM (#22991803)
Couple of notes: You don't necessarily need the full maintenance manual to support initial installation. And the project may have been broken out differently to make the rest of the aircraft's sums seem more palatable -- bureaucratic budgetary games.
Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by atdt on Sunday April 26, 2020 @09:36PM (#22992084)
I understand why it costs this much. I don't understand why we think it is worth doing. Rather than fabricate a flying White House, why not deputize the vice president to carry out presidential duties while the president is in the air? There is a well-defined presidential line of succession that exists expressly to ensure continuity of government in case the president is incapacitated. Why reserve its use for emergencies? We can use it routinely.

Use the $5 billion to build housing for homeless people.

Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by kgin on Sunday April 26, 2020 @11:40PM (#22992680)
Finding housing for homeless people isn't a money problem. We just don't want to do it.

We find/print money for things we want to do.

Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by dragonwriter on Sunday April 26, 2020 @11:45PM (#22992704)
> I understand why it costs this much. I don't understand why we think it is worth doing. Rather than fabricate a flying White House, why not deputize the vice president to carry out presidential duties while the president is in the air?

We have a national airborne command post, ultimately, in case the ground based command (the White House) is destroyed or under imminent threat requiring it to be (temporarily or permanently) abandoned. It's used for routine transport, and command and control while being used for routine transport, since it is desirable for it to be near the C-in-C at all times, and it doesn't make much sense not to use it.

Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by pm321 on Sunday April 26, 2020 @10:22PM (#22992299)
"Use the $5 billion to build housing for homeless people."

Homeless people are outside the circle of social distance and, therefore, social sympathy. ⁣Just sayin' the way to lower the cost is to produce more and sell more reprints of the manual at scale.

Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by killjoywashere on Sunday April 26, 2020 @09:03PM (#22991914)
Comes out to 14 hours at $60/hour per page. Does it take about 2 days to produce a page of balls-on-dead-accurate guidance for one of the most complex flying machines on earth? I can believe that.
Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by SlowRobotAhead on Sunday April 26, 2020 @09:31PM (#22992057)
Well... yea, but there are some pictures in there and maybe it’s double spaced! /s
Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by NikolaeVarius on Sunday April 26, 2020 @10:09PM (#22992254)
I've always liked the detail that the space shuttle maximum thrust is rated at 104% because after some flights, they learned that the RS-25 could be run harder than the specs required, and it was simpler/less chance for error to just set max at 104% of rated thrust, rather than recalculating everything and changing all the documentation.
Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by NikolaeVarius on Sunday April 26, 2020 @09:39PM (#22992096)
After working in Aero, I'm still amazed airplanes fly at all.

Every single line of that document would have been double checked multiple times, and literally have 3x more documentation tracking why that piece of top level documentation exists and tracking any changes to it.

Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by WalterBright on Sunday April 26, 2020 @09:54PM (#22992191)
These days git handles the tracking changes thing very nicely and almost effortlessly.
Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by NikolaeVarius on Sunday April 26, 2020 @10:01PM (#22992227)
Good for git? Gotcha comment is not useful when the industry (as far as I've seen) isn't using git to write manuals.
Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by cmauniada on Sunday April 26, 2020 @08:34PM (#22991733)
Thanks for the detailed analysis, I was near ready to take my pitchfork out.
Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by kace91 on Sunday April 26, 2020 @09:00PM (#22991891)
costs aside, I wonder how useful it is.

The average reading speed is about a page every 1-2 minutes (for non technical texts). 100.000 pages would then be a 800-1600 hour read, which is about half a year for a person spending 8 hours a day just flipping through pages.

Obviously such a manual is probably not meant to be read cover to cover, but even compared to a reference work, it's three times the volume of the entire Encyclopaedia Britannica - a giant amount of information to be easily used.

Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by egd on Sunday April 26, 2020 @09:10PM (#22991949)
You may never actually need all 100,000 pages, but you don't know in advance which pages you will need, and you'll definitely need that page when you need it.
Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by GuiA on Sunday April 26, 2020 @09:07PM (#22991934)
The cost of the information not being accessible when it is most urgently needed could easily be billions of dollars or many human lives.
Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by swsh on Monday April 27, 2020 @02:40AM (#22993467)
Well it also covers all of the sub-systems on the aircraft as well, from countermeasures to communications down to how to evacuate the aircraft toilet waste.

The information in that manual is probably spread over the domain of 100's of people all performing different roles. I don't think their is any expectation that one single human would read the entirety.

Kinda like your car manual or university textbook. I've never read mine from cover to cover, but it is a useful reference sometimes. Particularly in the case of Air Force One where I doubt an internet search covers most troubleshooting requirements.

Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by starpilot on Sunday April 26, 2020 @08:24PM (#22991669)
Printing manuals, $1 million.

Research by thousands of highly trained engineers, compiled by experienced technical writers and illustrators: $83 million.

Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by markdown on Sunday April 26, 2020 @09:46PM (#22992138)
Paper: $1M

Research by highly trained engineers: $50M

Printer ink: $32M

Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by kinkrtyavimoodh on Sunday April 26, 2020 @09:57PM (#22992206)
I can understand why a B737 can cost about a 100 million dollars, but I can't understand why a 4-seater Cessna costs as much as 300000 dollars... Can someone shed some light on it?
Re:New Air Force One instruction manuals cost $84M by Scramblejams on Sunday April 26, 2020 @10:30PM (#22992340)
Very few units over which to amortize everything. I can't recall the exact numbers, but there were years in which (I believe it was) Continental shipped 80,000 small aircraft engines, and a decade or two later, they were down to shipping ~3,000/year.