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Re:Lubuntu Linux 20.04 LTS (Focal Fossa) by acqq on Thursday April 23, 2020 @12:51PM (#22958005)
It has a long tradition. It happened to me many years ago: I've upgraded from one version of Ubuntu to another doing the "upgrade" but I had more and more problems. Then I've reached for help over the internet. The answer was "oh you upgrade to the new version? We never try this, we backup our home and install from scratch."

Another interesting point from these times: it was even then often written that the Linux and Ubuntu are better for the use of older computers compared to Windows. That wasn't true either. With every new version less of my hardware worked as expected. The memory demands only for the GUI installer were bigger than the demands of Windows, forcing me to attempt to install from the text mode, and still having the issues later. Windows just worked on the same machine (with the existing drivers).

I've also lived through my (other) old hardware breaking on Windows too: my notebook on which all the hardware worked as expected on Windows 7 was declared by the Windows 10 as "totally would work" and it totally didn't -- the Intel devices on it never got the drivers that worked on Windows 10, neither by Microsoft nor by Intel who simply stopped supporting them.

No OS is immune from the scenario (or even the company claims) "it will work" which than turns out not to be true with a new version.

Long story short, in this case, backup your /home, install from scratch. Backups are good anyway. Any other attempt will probably give more pain. Also don't expect the newest OS to always work with the old hardware. Be prepared for these kinds of events too.

For a real long term, there's Red Hat.

Re:Lubuntu Linux 20.04 LTS (Focal Fossa) by jlarocco on Thursday April 23, 2020 @01:30PM (#22958457)
Hopefully people realize it's an Ubuntu problem, and not a general Linux problem.

I pin my Debian machines to the "Testing" branch and "apt-get dist-upgrade" once a month, and I've never had a problem, except once or twice when NVIDIA drivers needed to be re-installed. It's worked great for me for 15 years, but YMMV.

The CPU/memory usage almost certainly has more to do with the software being used than with the distro. The Linux kernel and GNU system utilities can run on very low resource machines, but most "desktop environments," like GNOME, KDE, and even XFCE, are targeting up to date systems. IME, using old hardware usually means putting in some effort to find and configure software that will run well on it - I'm pretty sure it's the same on any OS.

Re:Lubuntu Linux 20.04 LTS (Focal Fossa) by Avamander on Thursday April 23, 2020 @01:57PM (#22958796)
Nah, it's not Ubuntu problem, it just happens because software is complex. It depends on so many factors and things like Debian break just as often.

I've personally had the same install across six Ubuntu installs in total and I know other people like that as well. Anecdotal experience but so is claiming Ubuntu's breakage ratio is higher.

Re:Lubuntu Linux 20.04 LTS (Focal Fossa) by c0l0 on Thursday April 23, 2020 @03:07PM (#22959799)
No, Debian releases do not "break just as often". If you really couldn't got from release n to n+1 via apt(-get|itude) due to new packages migrating into testing, this would be a release-critical bug, and have to be corrected before the n+1 release were to be marked stable.

There are certain situations where a Debian upgrade will break a specific package - maybe due to upstream messing up really badly, or maybe due to some unusual way of configuring it. But in that case, the release notes that Debian publishes for each release would cover that particular problem for sure. Mistakes happen, and noone's perfect - but Debian tries to be, and they're very near that ideal in terms of ensuring your ability to upgrade your installation.

Re:Lubuntu Linux 20.04 LTS (Focal Fossa) by dmz73 on Thursday April 23, 2020 @04:17PM (#22960730)
Fir me Debian releases are broken to start with. Fresh install of 10.3 resulted in gnome desktop that could not use gui sudo and some package with broken dependencies. Replaced with xubuntu that just worked. This was not the first time I tried Debian with similar results. The "stable" part just means that they distribute an old version of some software and not that it all works.
Re:Lubuntu Linux 20.04 LTS (Focal Fossa) by waltpad on Thursday April 23, 2020 @04:28PM (#22960887)
I thought Debian also moved to a fixed schedule release policy? Doesn't it make it harder to stick to a "release when ready"?

Personally, I don't think that Ubuntu is less perfect that Debian wrt. upgrade quality, it's just that (it seems to me that) the workforce is not as large, and that they also have other projects on their plate (not to say it should be that way or not, I'm merely trying to state the facts).

Re:Lubuntu Linux 20.04 LTS (Focal Fossa) by pvorb on Thursday April 23, 2020 @05:43PM (#22961859)
No, it makes "release when ready" easier, since the entire distribution doesn't have to wait for that single software release becau the next distro release is not that far away. At least that's how it works for Java. (I'm not that deep into Linux distros.)
Re:Lubuntu Linux 20.04 LTS (Focal Fossa) by waltpad on Thursday April 23, 2020 @07:18PM (#22962743)
How is that supposed to work? I understand that it possible to pull the plug on packages which are not ready at time T, but it also means pulling the plug on all the packages that depend on it.

So if libreoffice depends on package P, and that one is not ready, is Debian going to simply drop libreoffice until next release?

Re:Lubuntu Linux 20.04 LTS (Focal Fossa) by jlarocco on Friday April 24, 2020 @12:52PM (#22970209)
Nothing is dropped.

At a very high level, it works like this:

New versions of stuff go into Unstable. When they've been tested a while they get pushed to Testing. Periodically Testing is frozen and branched into a new Stable release. If a package doesn't make it into Testing before the freeze then it's out of luck and has to wait for the next release.

For example, assume libreoffice 1.0 and libfoo 1.0 are in Unstable, Testing and Stable. If libreoffice 1.1 comes out and depends on libfoo 1.1, but libfoo 1.1 is broken in Unstable, then libfoo 1.1 and libreoffice 1.1 won't be pushed to Testing until the issue is fixed. If they don't make it into Testing before the release freeze then the next stable will ship with libreoffice 1.0.

After the freeze, when the libfoo 1.1 is fixed in Unstable, then libreoffice 1.1 and libfoo 1.1 will go into Testing and wait for the next Stable to get branched.

Re:Lubuntu Linux 20.04 LTS (Focal Fossa) by acqq on Thursday April 23, 2020 @02:10PM (#22958994)
It is surely not anecdotal and telling about "people I know" but the top comment of this thread for Lubuntu 20.04 LTS:

"the Lubuntu team does not support upgrading from 18.04 or below to any greater release. Doing so will result in a broken system. If you are on 18.04 or below and would like to upgrade, please do a fresh install."

Note that 18.04 was also LTS, so whoever tries to upgrade from one LTS to another, will probably be able to start the process (like before) but at the end will with huge probability be better off just biting the bullet... and fresh install.

If the "people you know" upgrade faster then LTS to LTS they won't see a problem this time.

But being able to upgrade from one LTS to the next LTS is completely reasonable user expectation. I don't even want to try to prove that it will be broken this time.

Re:Lubuntu Linux 20.04 LTS (Focal Fossa) by Avamander on Friday April 24, 2020 @01:23PM (#22970631)
> but the top comment of this thread for Lubuntu 20.04 LTS:

The one I replied to said Ubuntu not Lubuntu. Big difference.

Re:Lubuntu Linux 20.04 LTS (Focal Fossa) by michaelmrose on Thursday April 23, 2020 @05:27PM (#22961671)
I have used a lot of distros.

In order of stability from most to least.

LTS -> Bleeding Edge -> 6 month release cycle distros

Stuff like Ubuntu non LTS seems to break as much as bleeding edge but take longer to fix it. It's the worst of both worlds.

Re:Lubuntu Linux 20.04 LTS (Focal Fossa) by bobx11 on Thursday April 23, 2020 @03:23PM (#22960026)
I take this approach on all operating systems now; I think I learned it from my dad when upgrading windows 95 to 98. A fresh install has less variability. Sure it takes a little more time to reinstall, but it’s an up front investment in not having complex research tasks later when things are weird.
Re:Lubuntu Linux 20.04 LTS (Focal Fossa) by chx on Thursday April 23, 2020 @01:33PM (#22958478)
This is why I abandoned Ubuntu for Arch.

This is not tenable, really.

The things I change are all over the place. From say /var/lib/mysql to /usr/local/bin and of course various /etc things ... it's not enough to say "backup /home and wipe the rest".

Re:Lubuntu Linux 20.04 LTS (Focal Fossa) by acqq on Thursday April 23, 2020 @02:06PM (#22958933)
Yes, I know, unfortunately there is still too much attitude of "just change as root x y in some/path/accesible/to/root"

A dose of a "normal-user"-hostility is kind of a given in Linux platforms, the best reflected by:

https://xkcd.com/619/

and sometimes it's, unfortunately, unavoidable for us when we are in the user's role to have to "just change as root that x y somewhere."

Long term, the goal should be to raise the awareness that there is a real need for most of the configuration to be easily transferable from the installation to the installation. But what we get instead is "just change as root wherever" and the containers for containers being run in the containers -- more bloat, but still not less demanding to maintain.

I really think Red Hat is not appreciated enough for their work on maintaining stability. The optimal solution will be when we have really stable platforms on which we will be able to easily and cheaply have recent languages, but also stable. Knowing how unstable practically a lot of programming platforms are, I am aware we're still not there. But... raise the awareness!