News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by chx on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @07:09AM (#22944313)
So Backblaze B2 costs $0.005/GB per month for storage. Let's see what are my options here, I could prepay 166 years at an unknown company with an unclear record of operations (I see the governing board is full of rather famous people but still -- that's not ops) and financials. Or I could just keep going with a company which has proven over 13 years it is solid both ops and financials wise.
Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by cbg0 on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:05AM (#22944640)
If you don't need to have your data in the cloud, there's also the option of just buying the drives, backing up your data and then putting them in a box, no need to keep them spinning unless you need frequent access to said data.

B2 is $0.06/GB/year, while a regular HDD would cost ~$0.03/GB/drive-lifespan.

Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by ineedasername on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @10:13AM (#22945747)
Hard drives should not be left unattended for even a few years with any expectation that they will still function when plugged back in. Sure, many will, but it's a crap shoot: Under ideal conditions an unused hard drive can be expected to retain data for 9 to 20 years. [0]

[0] https://blog.macsales.com/43702-we-bet-you-didnt-know-that-y...

Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by cbg0 on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @10:35AM (#22945992)
I really wish this blog would have listed some sources for all these statements.
Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by hncensorsnonpc on Thursday April 23, 2020 @01:20PM (#22958343)
Well yes but I heard that b4. You should just put on your calendar to plug them in (and update the backup) once in a while. I do not think it is about mechanical robustness. It is about the way the data is stored with magnetic tech, it think HDDs should be operated every once in a while to have a better chance of not loosing the data. But 9 days sounds awfully short.
Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by ineedasername on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @04:32PM (#22949866)
I found the approximate time frame in a few places, but never with any primary source. I also came across the claim that hard drives used to be more mechanically robust, and perhaps failed less often for such reasons. Again, I couldn't source it though.
Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by chris_st on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:18AM (#22944713)
Well, yeah, the idea of individual drives is great, but in practice I've had a lot of drives die.
Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by cbg0 on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:37AM (#22944872)
This was mostly a cost comparison I wanted to show, as the solutions of rolling your own set up at home vs a cloud set up are definitely very different.

At 10TB, you're paying $600/year on B2, a price at which you could outright buy two 10TB drives and stick them in a larger NAS setup with ZFS or a simpler RAID-1 array.

Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by chris_st on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @01:59PM (#22948347)
That's reasonable. Alternatively, I'm using Arq[0] (locally encrypted before upload, uploads to tons of different services, I'm using AWS S3 and Google Storage) so I'm paying ~$7/month for about 40G stored. And I don't have to worry about local drives dying or being stolen. Just another option.

[0] https://www.arqbackup.com

Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by desktop-app on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @02:17PM (#22948537)
> locally encrypted before upload, uploads to tons of different services

https://www.duplicati.com does that for free being open-source thing, all platforms supported.

Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by kennydude on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @09:04AM (#22945084)
Don't forget B2 involves putting that data onto multiple hard-drives and ensuring it isn't lost. What if that single disk were to be lost? You're paying Backblaze to ensure that GB can be accessed in the future
Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by cbg0 on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @09:27AM (#22945295)
> What if that single disk were to be lost?

This was a cost analysis, mostly for those that can't afford B2. You can buy two drives for the cost of a year at Backblaze and have N+1 redundancy.

> You're paying Backblaze to ensure that GB can be accessed in the future

No doubt, which is why I prefaced this with "If you don't need to have your data in the cloud".

Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by zvr on Saturday April 25, 2020 @03:57AM (#22976492)
Having tried to keep "permanent" backups of my personal digital data for 35+ years, I should point out that one should not underestimate the problem of technological change.

The "device" you use today will, in all probability, not be usable after a number of years, no matter whether you spin it up regularly and maintain it in a working condition.

I have backups in countless floppies, diskettes, Zip drives, 9-track, QIC, DAT, SCSI, ...

Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by oefrha on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @09:33AM (#22945343)
B2 costs more than that, unless you never download anything. (Not taking into account exploits like utilizing Bandwidth Alliance and Cloudfare free tier to get free egress.)
Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by chx on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @12:27PM (#22947308)
How is that exploiting anything, they encourage it.
Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by GlitchMr on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @03:11PM (#22949091)
It's against the Cloudflare ToS:

> The Service is offered primarily as a platform to cache and serve web pages and websites. Unless explicitly included as a part of a Paid Service purchased by you, you agree to use the Service solely for the purpose of serving web pages as viewed through a web browser or other functionally equivalent applications and rendering Hypertext Markup Language (HTML) or other functional equivalents. Use of the Service for serving video (unless purchased separately as a Paid Service) or a disproportionate percentage of pictures, audio files, or other non-HTML content, is prohibited.

Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by oefrha on Thursday April 23, 2020 @12:18AM (#22952761)
It’s okay at least for serving images (as long as you use workers): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20791660 from CloudFlare CEO. It’s not clear to me if piping terabytes over terabytes of, say, opaque data would violate anything.

This is a clever exploit none the less (not a pejorative).

Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by OJFord on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:22AM (#22944745)
> then putting them ["a regular HDD"] in a box, no need to keep them spinning

Are you sure about that? I'm no expert, but I thought it was advisable to power up spinning platter disks at least every so often, once a year say?

And where are you keeping this backup, same box?

Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by cbg0 on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:34AM (#22944844)
> but I thought it was advisable to power up spinning platter disks at least every so often, once a year say?

Is there a specific reason why you would need to do that? I'm not really aware of any.

> And where are you keeping this backup, same box?

This is ultimately up to you, depending on what kind of redundancy you deem necessary and whether you have multiple physical locations where you could store the said drives.

Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by hedora on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @12:20PM (#22947230)
These days, hard drives probably scrub themselves periodically, looking for and rewriting sectors with high error correction error rates.

SSD’s definitely do this.

Even if hard disks don’t do this, mean time to repair is a crucial parameter in raid durability calculations. If you spin the drives up once a year, the mean time to repair is 6 months. Most raid systems are likely to lose data if it takes more than a few days to repair.

Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by sp332 on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @10:11AM (#22945730)
The ball bearings have lubricant that can shift over time due to gravity. And the metal parts might weld to each other over time if they are not moved.
Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by cbg0 on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @10:37AM (#22946013)
How likely are these things to actually happen?
Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by sp332 on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @10:49AM (#22946115)
I think the welding takes more than a year. The lubricant settling probably depends on the quality of the drive and the ambient temperature. And I guess the ball bearings would be pretty tolerant (since you only have to move them a little to get the lubricant on them again), it's more likely that the heads would stick.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiction#Hard_disk_drives

Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by dexterdog on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @07:50AM (#22944566)
Not to mention you could have a fund that pays the backblaze bill and as that monthly price dwindles over time the interest on your money would pay it in perpetuity.

If something like permanent.org is setup intelligently they can even have a plan for a backblaze demise (god forbid) and use the fund to migrate to another provider(s) in that case.

Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by ValentineC on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @12:00PM (#22946982)
> Not to mention you could have a fund that pays the backblaze bill and as that monthly price dwindles over time the interest on your money would pay it in perpetuity.

Assuming we're talking about storage in perpetuity without the need for maintenance, the fund would need someone trusted to administer it.

I personally wish there was an inexpensive, trusted place for me to deposit a large sum of money, and have it automatically paid to service providers to maintain my domain/hosting/online identity in perpetuity, or until my deposit/endowment runs out.

This sounds like what I want, only just for data.

Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by 418tpot on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:40PM (#22951709)
Backblaze B2 also requires a verified mobile phone number in order to use it - even if you've already given them a credit card.

I would love there to be an option available at Backblaze B2 pricing, without a massive invasion of privacy. Right now I'm using Linode's Object storage, which is priced at $0.02/GB per month which is still reasonably priced for my needs.

Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by chx on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @09:27PM (#22951941)
pvacodes.com
Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by 101008 on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @09:26AM (#22945288)
I've never heard of Blackblaze B2 but it seems good according to some reviews and cheaper. Does it have a Desktop app or UI or something like that? I'd love to replace Dropbox with this. If not, someone should do a UI wrapper around B2 and charge for it ;)
Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by sp332 on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @10:14AM (#22945759)
There is a basic web UI and command line client. But mainly what it has is an API that many third-party clients support. https://www.backblaze.com/b2/integrations.html
Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by INTPenis on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @09:31AM (#22945326)
I think your comment just put a lot of people on to Backblaze B2. At least you did for me. I was using S3 but I think I'll consider Backblaze now as an alternative.
Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by ValentineC on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @12:45PM (#22947515)
One of the downsides of B2, especially for people located outside the US/Europe, is that they only have datacenters in the US west coast, and in Netherlands.
Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by sosodev on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:36PM (#22951686)
You can put Cloudflare in front the bucket for free egress and a global cdn
Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by imglorp on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @09:30AM (#22945311)
What's also interesting about this question is that storage density continues to double every several years. It would be safe to assume that the entire current planetary storage would fit on a thumb drive 166 years from now. Maybe by then it'll be magneto-spintronic-DNA time crystals.
Re:Permanent.org – Nonprofit, secure cloud storage by tootie on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @09:24AM (#22945256)
Is Permanent a consumer product or enterprise? B2 is definitely enterprise.