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Re:Engineering code quality in Firefox by juskrey on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @01:10AM (#22942424)
Are you sure he doesn't employ the same tactics instead of actual research? (I am generally suspicious of anyone who voluntary pursues academia)
Re:Engineering code quality in Firefox by dbmueller on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @01:50AM (#22942657)
> I am generally suspicious of anyone who voluntary pursues academia

That's very unfair imo. The majority of people I know in academia don't fit this profile at all. There is obviously disappointing stuff happening, but people generally still are working/teaching in good faith.

Re:Engineering code quality in Firefox by LoveMortuus on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @05:32AM (#22943751)
>but people generally still are working/teaching in good faith.

It depends on university. On mine, most professors just see it as a job, something that one must endure until it's over. And when you bring to attention that what they're lecturing is incorrect or not proven they don't really care, again not all, but most, at least on my university. Just today I reminded the professor that there is a difference between a theory and hypothesis, their response was that they don't know if the theories they're teaching were tested or proven, but they are teaching this because that's what's written in the book...

That made me really sad, it's already hard to stay motivated to not leave the university because you need a certificate of a higher education to be taken seriously, but such behaviour from professors makes it even harder.

I've already expressed my worries to those in control of courses and they say that they understand but can't do much to change things because the curriculum that we have was accepted by the government.

Here in Slovenia people that work in the universities are paid by the government regardless of how happy or unhappy the students are, which is probably the reason for the situation in which we are...

Re:Engineering code quality in Firefox by avian on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:43AM (#22944912)
As a fellow Slovenian, former student and now someone who's spent years professionally in academia, let me try to show your experience from a different perspective. I don't know anything about your professor except the anecdote you shared, so I'm not defending them. I'm just trying to shine a different light "on the situation in which we are" that you as a student perhaps didn't (yet) have a chance to see. I'm also writing this because I feel like your view is pretty common among our students.

How our universities work is that as a researcher a part of your duty to the university is teaching students. Unfortunately, fields of research and study subjects in most cases aren't aligned. Nobody will be researching basic subjects that must be taught to the students, and on the other hand a very specialized field of research might not be taught to anything but a small post-graduate course. This means that often professors will end up teaching an undergraduate course that has next to nothing to do with their field of study. In the end, someone must be teaching those introductory courses and for some subjects being taught the university might not have any professional researchers at all.

Professors are researchers first and teachers second. This is most likely the reason why it appears that teaching is "something that one must endure until it's over". Your professor might be a brilliant world-class researcher in their field and they pursue it with passion, but they might be teaching e.g. linear algebra to undergraduates twice a week based on "what's written in the book" to keep their job. As it turns out, teaching and research are quite different skills and they often don't coincide. When they do, you get some really amazing professors and I'm sure you have some on your course as well.

It's not a perfect system, but I've spent enough time in foreign universities where research staff was on-the-hook all the time and liable to get fired if students weren't happy with them. It's such a constantly stressful environment that I was amazed that people managed to do any kind of research at all. In the end, it's a trade-off. You can't have a university without either top-end research or teaching and we might have chosen a slightly different trade-off between these two than the countries you seem to look up to.

Anyway, I hope I've given you a new way to look at things and I hope you will stay at your university for more than just to get the "take me seriously" papers.

Re:Engineering code quality in Firefox by juskrey on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @02:43AM (#22942911)
The main problem in academia is that people still can be harmful even being in good faith. (remember that "road to hell" saying, right?)
Re:Engineering code quality in Firefox by dbmueller on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @03:06AM (#22943008)
> people still can be harmful even being in good faith

That's a general truth. You make it sound like people choose academia to somehow cheat the system and profit from free student's work or whatever. Make a real case for you thesis then.

Re:Engineering code quality in Firefox by juskrey on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @03:11AM (#22943022)
People choose academia to be within (zero-sum) system and project the same expectations to students, while real life success is about being out of any system. Hence the harm.
Re:Engineering code quality in Firefox by exdsq on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @03:59AM (#22943267)
People don't 'choose academia to be within a zero-sum system and project the same expectations to students'. My partner and most of my friends are or have been in academia and the one common thing is a real passion for their subject of choice and industry doesn't offer the same flexibility to focus on it.

Being suspicious of those who voluntarily become academics is odd.

Re:Engineering code quality in Firefox by sgift on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @06:30AM (#22944108)
Talks about zero-sum. Uses things based on the results of said zero-sum system. Makes you laugh and cry at the same time.
Re:Engineering code quality in Firefox by juskrey on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @06:36AM (#22944137)
Real life results of academia are largely propaganda (tuition billions well spent). They are not even good in figuring out why/how things work and replicating success (additionally proven by Soviets).
Re:Engineering code quality in Firefox by sgift on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @07:14AM (#22944343)
Your language of choice - Clojure according to your HN bio - works on a product where important parts (e.g. Generics and the Java collection framework) were done by academia. One of the most popular compilers (LLVM) was done in academia (and still is in parts!). Most of the optimizations compilers use were done by academia.

Your work stands on the work of countless academic researchers and you run around "What did academia EVER do for us?" - the Monty Python sketch about Romans comes to mind.

Re:Engineering code quality in Firefox by juskrey on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @07:25AM (#22944400)
This is especially laughable, since I have seen how that works on practice: take something everyone already does, write 1000 of PhDs on that, add to academic history book, now wikipedia and voila.

If any of IT projects came from academia to the market, it's only because certain people were picked up by businesses that were onto something already.

Re:Engineering code quality in Firefox by exdsq on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @11:32AM (#22946634)
I don't mean this in a derogatory way but from your bio it sounds like you work in full-stack web development - maybe with some data processing. Sure, this stuff doesn't really come from academia. But there are other bits of tech where academia does play a large part and your viewpoint is just not correct. One example that contradicts your second paragraph away is I spent several years at a consultancy that helped academics commericalise their own research - mostly medical tech but some computer vision stuff too. There's loads of great work businesses coming out of academia - you might just not be in a position to see it.
Re:Engineering code quality in Firefox by juskrey on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @11:54AM (#22946911)
Coincidentally, before current full stack freelancing stuff, I've spent around two years in augmented reality, often having to dig through tons of published research, only to realize pretentious lab methods do not work outside. We ended up adopting some methods from hacky teens on DIY forums, but never that..
Re:Engineering code quality in Firefox by readwind on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @02:10AM (#22942760)
Don't be salty, man, no offence, academics need love too. I'm not even by far academic, academical, but, let's keep it cool, man. No offence or intent to be hostile.