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Re:Some auto insurers are sending refunds to customers as cr... by chrisseaton on Monday April 06, 2020 @09:11PM (#22799486)
Ah that explains it.

Otherwise doesn't a refund go against the whole idea of insurance? The idea is you pay a premium not knowing if you'll need it or not, and they take on all the risk if you do need it.

If you ask for your premium back because you didn't need it you're missing the point of insurance.

Re:Some auto insurers are sending refunds to customers as cr... by AnthonyMouse on Monday April 06, 2020 @10:48PM (#22799929)
> The idea is you pay a premium not knowing if you'll need it or not, and they take on all the risk if you do need it.

It's not getting your premium back because you didn't need it. You'd still get back this portion of the premium even if you get into a car accident on your way to the grocery store, because it's not about you, it's about everybody else. The average risk went down, so the average premium went down.

This certainly happens in the other direction too, they'll raise your premium for the next period if the average risk goes up. But their marketing departments aren't stupid. Sending everybody a check right now makes their "largess" more conspicuous to customers than sending everybody a smaller bill next quarter. It also keeps you from canceling your policy with them and switching to someone else currently offering a lower rate because of the currently lower risk.

Re:Some auto insurers are sending refunds to customers as cr... by unbalancedevh on Monday April 06, 2020 @11:00PM (#22799990)
I just got a refund check from Progressive, the same time I got my next bill. I wish they had just reduced the bill.
Re:Some auto insurers are sending refunds to customers as cr... by Spivak on Monday April 06, 2020 @11:07PM (#22800021)
I can’t even imagine how annoying a system like that would be to implement. So you credit everyone’s account but then you have mark this money as special to ensure that it eventually gets paid out to every account in either credit or cash. Then you have to monitor the accounts for policy cancellations and issue checks.
Re:Some auto insurers are sending refunds to customers as cr... by djannzjkzxn on Monday April 06, 2020 @11:47PM (#22800205)
The credit card companies don’t seem to have any trouble applying my cash back rewards to my account balance without sending me a check. But if I do cancel my account and end up with a positive balance, they do send a check. Seems like basic accounting to me, not some sort of wizardry like you suggest. Mailing checks is probably more expensive if anything.
Re:Some auto insurers are sending refunds to customers as cr... by ceejayoz on Monday April 06, 2020 @09:31PM (#22799586)
Brand loyalty is a thing, too, though.

"Allstate did me a solid when they didn't have to" is a pretty good PR move, especially if they're suddenly awash in cash due to reduced claims.

Re:Some auto insurers are sending refunds to customers as cr... by harikb on Monday April 06, 2020 @10:02PM (#22799739)
If it was just PR, companies will spend $10 on ads talking about it for every $1 they give away. Give credit to the regulation when it works - next time someone says regulation is bad.. remember this.
Re:Some auto insurers are sending refunds to customers as cr... by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @02:00AM (#22800685)
For a mutual insurance company, what difference does the regulation make? Whether the customers get the money as a refund check or the mutual insurance dividend or lower premiums next period, they still get it.

Even for a for-profit insurer, insurance is a fairly competitive market. They might have to give the customers the money anyway to keep them from defecting to the mutual insurance companies. Even if they didn't, that would make being in the insurance market more profitable, which would attract new competitors, which would drive down premiums/margins until the risk-adjusted return of becoming an insurance carrier was back where it was. In other words, in a competitive market the customer gets the money one way or another.

This is a common occurrence with regulation. The regulation requires some good thing that would have happened regardless, the good thing happens and the proponents credit the regulation even though it was inevitable. Meanwhile you have a compliance cost, because it takes resources to keep track of the regulation and make sure you're complying with it even if it was the exact thing you were going to do anyway. That makes everyone poorer -- the compliance cost is the opposite of the windfall, so it makes it less attractive to compete in the insurance market and allows companies to pass on the compliance costs as higher premiums.

Re:Some auto insurers are sending refunds to customers as cr... by harikb on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @11:37AM (#22804169)
You are making two claims

1. If there is extra profit one year, these companies will willingly reduce premiums instead of giving bonuses, stock buy backs, or dividends to investors. I don’t know if you have observed the stock market recently

2. “Compliance cost” - these things are not done via paper and fax machines. Regulation simply asks one to keep track of, say in the case of medical companies, administration cost vs servicing cost etc - things you would have had to do anyways in your public-good-seeking scenario above

Re:Some auto insurers are sending refunds to customers as cr... by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @12:54PM (#22804959)
> 1. If there is extra profit one year, these companies will willingly reduce premiums instead of giving bonuses, stock buy backs, or dividends to investors. I don’t know if you have observed the stock market recently

It's the thing competitive markets require of them. If costs go down, one company is going to notice how much more profit they can make by lowering prices and using the lower prices to triple their market share. The others then have to do the same thing or they continue to lose market share.

The buybacks are something else entirely -- they're a result of low long-term interest rates. Companies have at least two ways of raising capital. They can sell stock and they can borrow money. When interest rates are low it makes more sense to raise money through borrowing than selling shares. Buybacks are the reverse of selling shares, so when interest rates are reduced there is a rebalancing which involves companies borrowing more money and buying back shares because it's cheaper to use borrowed capital than invested capital when interest rates are low.

> 2. “Compliance cost” - these things are not done via paper and fax machines. Regulation simply asks one to keep track of, say in the case of medical companies, administration cost vs servicing cost etc - things you would have had to do anyways in your public-good-seeking scenario above

Have you seen the regulations in some of these industries? There is nothing simple about it. It requires you to have lawyers in addition to accountants. And the lawyers are pathologically risk-averse but have plenary control over compliance policy because no one wants to end up in court, so the rules in practice are characteristically much more rigid than what the legislature intended.

Many of the costs are also fixed rather than proportional to customer volume, which disproportionately impacts smaller companies and results in a disproportionately large negative impact on competition.

Re:Some auto insurers are sending refunds to customers as cr... by coredog64 on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @12:03PM (#22804424)
The next time someone said water boarding is bad, remember when you were thirsty and had a cold glass of ice water.
Re:Some auto insurers are sending refunds to customers as cr... by analog31 on Monday April 06, 2020 @09:55PM (#22799705)
Car insurance is more than just insurance, though. For one thing, it's mandatory. A person with zero assets buying insurance is also missing the point of liability insurance, but they have to buy it anyway.
Re:Some auto insurers are sending refunds to customers as cr... by bluGill on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @10:12AM (#22803345)
The point of mandatory liability insurance is to ensure you have enough assets to pay for any damage you cause.
Re:Some auto insurers are sending refunds to customers as cr... by hermitdev on Monday April 06, 2020 @11:21PM (#22800071)
Not in every US state. I think compulsory liability insurance is only required in 48/50 states.
Re:Some auto insurers are sending refunds to customers as cr... by dllthomas on Monday April 06, 2020 @10:11PM (#22799769)
There's a difference between "you didn't need it" and "an unusually small portion of the (large) risk pool needed it".
Re:Some auto insurers are sending refunds to customers as cr... by perl4ever on Monday April 06, 2020 @09:56PM (#22799709)
Do you think that the price an insurance company sets for risk in advance is by definition correct?

I mean, something that comes to mind in terms of current events, people selling puts (stock options) just before the stuff hit the fan with COVID-19, were selling insurance. It seems really difficult in my mind to argue that that insurance was priced correctly just before the panic started.

Re:Some auto insurers are sending refunds to customers as cr... by gwright on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @12:34AM (#22800368)
> Do you think that the price an insurance company sets for risk in advance is by definition correct?

The question doesn't make sense. The price is neither correct nor incorrect, it is just the price. It may or may not lead to financial success based on a whole host of factors but that isn't the same thing as "correct" or "incorrect".

Re:Some auto insurers are sending refunds to customers as cr... by imtringued on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @05:13AM (#22801601)
The insurance company can also just reduce the billed amount.
Re:Some auto insurers are sending refunds to customers as cr... by triceratops on Monday April 06, 2020 @11:23PM (#22800079)
The premium is calculated based on a certain set of risk factors. Miles driven is one of them. If that changes, it's reasonable to ask for a refund.