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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by est31 on Friday April 03, 2020 @07:05AM (#22767989)
It's weird how the "hardware disconnect" term for the pre-2019 devices was stretched to include a firmware, that is software-only, feature. Kinda like the "end to end encryption" of Zoom. Glad that Apple resolved this for newer devices. I'd still love to see wiring diagrams or explanations how it actually works. Which kind of circuit do they use? Is it the power line that's suppressed or the data line? Is it only an analog line that's suppressed and if you tune up internal amp you might be getting some residual?

About the iPads, what does their "hardware" based microphone disconnect entail? It has to be some electro-magnetic based communication instead of currents so the circuit has to be more complicated. I doubt it's done without using any kind of software but would be glad to hear otherwise.

Overall, I'm glad that they are responding to concerns and working to address them.

Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by blattimwind on Friday April 03, 2020 @10:40AM (#22769591)
For analog, electret microphones a mute switch is very simple. Simply put an R-C pair (R a few MΩ, C 10-20 µF) in parallel to the microphone capsule. To mute it, short the R out. This is pop-free because the R charges the capacitor to the DC operating point of the capsule. When the R is shorted out, the microphone's output is shunted by the capacitor, which attenuates the signal level by >40-60 dB.

For digital microphones it can also be very simple. Consider a PDM microphone, if you disconnect the data line and have it stick to either high or low through a pull-up, the signal becomes DC. This wouldn't be pop-free by itself, but it should be rather easy to make it so through DSP.

(FWIW, you can also easily mute pro-audio microphones by shorting (+) and (-) together. The attenuation is determined by the output impedance of the microphone, usually a few hundred Ohms, divided by the resistance of your switch. Typically you'll get like 60 dB from this, which is perfectly fine for muting in a normal setup, but if you crank the preamp all the way up you can still get a usable, albeit very noisy, signal out of it.)

Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by markrages on Friday April 03, 2020 @03:00PM (#22772875)
Shorting the mic signal is not a straightforward solution. For one thing, you can just amplify your signal right back up to intelligibility, since 40-60dB attenuation doesn't go under the noise floor of a well-designed system.

Just send the mic signal through an op-amp with an enable input.

Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by blattimwind on Friday April 03, 2020 @03:10PM (#22772966)
Forward isolation is not necessarily much better than -60 dB depending on the exact op amp.
Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by marcan_42 on Friday April 03, 2020 @11:23AM (#22770145)
Most embedded microphones these days are digital MEMS microphones, using PDM. For those, if you gate off the digital signal, it's gone for good. I wouldn't be surprised if this is what Apple is doing.

This is how the Google Home Mini does it. When you flip the mute switch, an AND gate kills the digital signal from both microphones (a stereo microphone pair share a single data line). All the audio hardware gets is a string of 0 bits at that point.

Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by jwr on Friday April 03, 2020 @07:34AM (#22768136)
> I'd still love to see wiring diagrams or explanations how it actually works. Which kind of circuit do they use?

I'd like to see that too, but I don't think we will. I suspect it's a magnetic switch and I'm also curious which lines it cuts.

FWIW, you can still get some audio from an accelerometer if you can get it to report data with a high enough frequency.

Not sure what you mean about iPhones, their information does not mention the iPhone (and I would not expect it to).

Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by est31 on Friday April 03, 2020 @07:44AM (#22768187)
> Not sure what you mean about iPhones, their information does not mention the iPhone (and I would not expect it to).

I meant iPads but got confused. Thanks for pointing it out.

Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by derefr on Friday April 03, 2020 @10:36AM (#22769544)
I’d think the raw pressure-level input from the force sensors on the trackpad would be even more accurate. It’s essentially an array of transducers already.
Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by markrages on Friday April 03, 2020 @02:56PM (#22772831)
An accelerometer on a physical object is a force sensor. F=mA
Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by dicknuckle on Friday April 03, 2020 @11:11AM (#22769998)
I bet Louis Rossmann and other 3rd party apple repair services could figure it out.
Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by rimlicker on Friday April 03, 2020 @03:40PM (#22773241)
they're probably just shorting the pvpvp3p33vp
Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by BIKESHOPagency on Friday April 03, 2020 @05:59PM (#22774360)
... v3 hot
Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by foobarbecue on Friday April 03, 2020 @10:55AM (#22769788)
There seems to be a new broad trend of stretching feature names. Shopping for headphones, "noise cancelling" began to be used recently to mean "pretty good seal" and now I see "7.1 Surround Sound" on headphones with two drivers to mean "has some fancy audio processing."
Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by gumby on Friday April 03, 2020 @12:13PM (#22770748)
It’s not new, sadly. The phrase “snake oil” goes back to the 19th century but names a phenomenon going back millennia.
Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by dredmorbius on Friday April 03, 2020 @07:45PM (#22775007)
The original snake oil, from the Chinese water snake, (Enhydris chinensis), worked.

Ingedients being hard to come by, and the market uninformed but spend-happy, hucksters appeared and the "medicine show‘ emerged. Patent medicines were also amongst the first widely advertised products in mass media beginning in the mid-19th century.

https://www.collectorsweekly.com/articles/how-snake-oil-got-...

http://gen.lib.rus.ec/scimag/?q=10.1007%2Fs12686-014-0200-1

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2013/08/26/215761377/a-h...

http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/omega3-fatty...

Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by hanniabu on Saturday April 04, 2020 @09:17AM (#22778053)
I'm actually looking for headphones now. How would I know what headphones have actual noise canceling features?
Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by chiefgeek on Saturday April 04, 2020 @09:55AM (#22778224)
Try the Sony WHX line. Got a pair last fall and they are great.
Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by etherealG on Monday April 06, 2020 @02:56AM (#22791433)
Look for details of the audio processing in the tech specs. Even better, check a good reputable review site like headfi.
Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by cbm-vic-20 on Friday April 03, 2020 @10:13AM (#22769291)
I miss the days when reference manuals included code listings and schematics.

https://archive.org/details/applerefjan78/

Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by bigiain on Friday April 03, 2020 @10:35PM (#22775748)
As a maybe 13 or 14 year old, the manual for the Osbourne2 Z80 CPM machine dad bought contained enough information for me to work out how to connect a broken Atari video game joystick to the parallel port, and how to read it by peeking memory from Basic...

Circuit diagrams, bank switched memory details, pretty sure someone dedicated could have built themselves their own machine with access to the manual and the right rom dump and system floppy disks...

Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by Traster on Friday April 03, 2020 @10:37AM (#22769568)
My suspicion is there's a hardware method of detecting lid closed - probably detecting a physical magnet (which is used anyway so that lid closes nicely) and that drives a transistor which then does the gating.

I don't see why you assert that is has to be electro-magnetic based, as long as the gating is down by a 'dumb' fixed transistor rather than a programmable chip, then it's a hardware disconnect.

Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by lukifer on Friday April 03, 2020 @11:24AM (#22770156)
In the same spirit as putting tape over the webcam, I'd love it if someone found a solution for putting a tiny magnet in exactly the right spot to force-disable the microphone while the lid is open. :)

I hope you're right, and I'd agree that would qualify as a "hardware disconnect". It's a little confusing given the mention of the T2 chip; they do differentiate some specific models which are "hardware alone", and at least imply that the T2 chip does not flip the off-switch on those. I'll have to go dig into iFixit's tear-downs to see if they found anything. For the 2020 iPad, they specifically mention "MFI compliant cases", so we can be fairly certain that one's done with magnets.

Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by duskwuff on Friday April 03, 2020 @12:04PM (#22770645)
> I'd love it if someone found a solution for putting a tiny magnet in exactly the right spot to force-disable the microphone while the lid is open. :)

It's the same sensor that's used to detect if the lid is open in general. Triggering it will prevent the display from turning on, and will make the computer go to sleep if it isn't running in "clamshell mode" (running on AC power with an external display attached).

Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by lukifer on Friday April 03, 2020 @04:07PM (#22773453)
Disappointing, but makes sense, thanks for sharing.
Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by benhurmarcel on Saturday April 04, 2020 @09:38AM (#22778140)
> For the 2020 iPad, they specifically mention "MFI compliant cases", so we can be fairly certain that one's done with magnets.

Why is that? Any case, including not "MFI", could put a magnet at the location if that was the case. Doesn't "MFI" mean that they make it only work with cases that are identified via the software to have paid their certification to Apple?

Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by lukifer on Monday April 06, 2020 @05:30PM (#22798096)
That's a good question, I honestly don't know. My guess would be that MFI is essentially a checklist of all supported magnetic functionality, and therefore the experience Apple can promise in its marketing (ie, in addition to collecting fees, they don't want a user to blame Apple when a non-approved case doesn't work). I'd wager that a non-MFI case with magnets in the right places would still work; I don't think constraining to pre-approved RFID codes or anything like that.
Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by est31 on Friday April 03, 2020 @12:01PM (#22770616)
Interesting, it's magnet based. I've learned something today!
Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by diebeforei485 on Friday April 03, 2020 @07:27PM (#22774905)
iPad Pro has multiple mics on different sides of the device, so they'd need to have multiple of this.
Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by exo762 on Friday April 03, 2020 @08:41AM (#22768589)
Talking about stretching terms - how about "zero knowledge" encryption marketed by cloud storage providers? Taking a cool sounding term from cryptography space and misapplying it to describe end to end encryption.
Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by s_fischer on Friday April 03, 2020 @09:36AM (#22768987)
They rely on people with "zero knowledge" of encryption to select them as vendors
Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by detaro on Friday April 03, 2020 @10:44AM (#22769648)
Considering firmware as part of the hardware from a higher-level view is not necessarily that weird in itself. It really depends on the details. I.e. a simple microcontroller with a program in ROM is also "firmware", but not all that different from a pure electronic ciruit. For more complex systems it becomes a more difficult question.

Also, why would detecting a closed iPad sleeve require "electro-magnet based communication"? Seems like detecting presence of a magnet would be enough.

Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by gumby on Friday April 03, 2020 @12:12PM (#22770730)
As a former firmware developer (not for Apple, for power generation) it has firmware its not a hardware solution.

We have automatic steam cutoffs that are entirely mechanical. I have built a state machine out of hardware logic that would have cost less than a dollar with a microprocessor but was preferred because it could be verified to work and not be remotely “upgradeable”.

Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by lathiat on Friday April 03, 2020 @08:46PM (#22775280)
The computer free automation of a jukebox from the 1970s is an eye opener: (an in depth teardown and explanation) https://youtu.be/NmGaXEmfTIo
Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by electroguy on Friday April 03, 2020 @10:27AM (#22769440)
“ It has to be some electro-magnetic based communication instead of currents so the circuit has to be more complicated. I doubt it's done without using any kind of software but would be glad to hear otherwise.”

You can do the whole thing in analog fairly easily. The hardest part would be to get the magnetic sensor integrated into the same chip, but I guess that’s been a solved problem for a while.

Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by TheKarateKid on Saturday April 04, 2020 @01:10AM (#22776326)
I would still like to see Apple implement a Dell-style physical slider to close/block the webcam lens while the laptop is opened.