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Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by save_ferris on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:26PM (#22751965)
I don't see a solution that puts a swift end to this. The power asymmetry between employers and workers is so vast that situations like these are inevitable.

We can't continue to live in this fantasy where companies have so much power over workers and their futures. But changing this involves organizing labor, which is deeply stigmatized in the US.

Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by lonelappde on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:36PM (#22752081)
Doctors are the strongest guild in USA. They have the legal power to enforce a chronic shortage of doctors. That's why why PAs were invented.
Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by save_ferris on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:45PM (#22752174)
You're proving my point. If one of the most powerful labor groups in the economy is being subjected to ruthless firing for speaking out on critical health issues during a national crisis, then what does that say about the state of labor in the US in general?
Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by deskamess on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:57PM (#22752316)
Are they (Doctors) misunderstanding the environment? Surely in this particular case, firing the Doctor looks bad on the hospital. Leverage/PR is with the Doctor. Perhaps I am reading it wrong.
Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by save_ferris on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @03:34PM (#22752715)
Negative PR is a poor tool to bring about meaningful change as it works very inconsistently. Zoom, Facebook, Equifax, etc. have all experienced sustained negative PR with little effect to their bottom line or operational structure. PR is also purchased, and companies spend heavily to rehab their image online.

Hospitals also are fairly well insulated from negative PR as well since they don't operate in a free market, which prevents patients from being able to choose to go elsewhere.

Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by Bombthecat on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @04:57PM (#22753409)
That the lack of ppe can't be that bad.

A cynical would say.

Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by checktheama on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:46PM (#22752185)
I think you're probably right about the guild part.

The chronic shortage of doctors? Well, that's because they're perhaps the strongest guild. The AMA puts a cap on the supply of doctors (via # of residency slots they allow). The PAs were invented so that another class of workers could do the work of doctors without jeopardizing the doctors' pay or status.

Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by MiroF on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:52PM (#22752253)
It appears that you are stating the exact same as the above comment, no?
Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by checktheama on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @03:15PM (#22752527)
I think the parent comment makes it seem like the guild is addressing a problem external to itself. My comment simply makes the causal link that the guild is solving a problem of its own making. A simpler solution would perhaps be to end/reduce the AMA monopoly. In that case, doctors would make less (as they do in the rest of the world), but the supply of doctors would be much higher.
Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by MiroF on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @06:22PM (#22754112)
I disagree - I think the comment is not implying the guild is addressing any problem at all and makes it quite clear that the guild is the cause of the problem.

They are not saying that doctors invented PAs to solve the chronic shortage, they're saying that doctors created the chronic shortage which necessitated policy intervention in the form of PAs.

I think you've just misread the comment and would find that it actually agrees strongly with what you said.

Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by skue on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @11:06PM (#22755893)
> The AMA puts a cap on the supply of doctors (via # of residency slots they allow)

This is factually untrue.[1]

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4978854/

Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by claudeganon on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:46PM (#22752193)
Well, their guild is obviously not as strong, militant, nor organized as the power of hospitals if this is happening. Gesturing in the direction of their other control doesn’t disprove anything.

It’s worth noting that the AMA also is structured in such a way that gives undue influence to specialist physicians over GPs and ER docs (their representatives essentially get more votes over group policy decisions).

Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by skue on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @10:49PM (#22755812)
Doctors don’t enforce shortages. No one is stopping new medical schools from being created, it’s just not a trivial thing to do.

I’d actually argue that physicians haven’t yet fully grasped their power. Historically, many docs worked in independent clinics or small practice groups. That made them subject to antitrust law when teaming up to negotiate en masse against a large insurer, for example.

Today, with all of the consolidation over the past decade, many have become employees. This has made them less powerful in many ways... except, now they can unionize without any of those old antitrust concerns.

Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by username90 on Thursday April 02, 2020 @08:41AM (#22758279)
> Doctors don’t enforce shortages. No one is stopping new medical schools from being created, it’s just not a trivial thing to do.

USA could do like they do in tech and import already educated people. In tech we welcome that, in medicine that process requires the immigrant doctors to take additional years of study since medical doctors in USA have a post grad degree for no good reason.

Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by ykevinator on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @06:17PM (#22754083)
Right plus the ama which enforces irrational wage by limiting supply. I worry more for the nurses.
Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by predictmktegirl on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:45PM (#22752179)
We have a unionist running for president but the electorate doesn't seem to want that at the moment. I think we're witnessing another symptom of growing inequality. Several billionaires such as Ray Dalio have rightly remarked that this is a dangerous and potentially destabilizing development in our society. What is most troubling to me is that it appears we would rather blame others instead of trying to solve the underlying issues.
Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by save_ferris on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @06:01PM (#22753968)
> We have a unionist running for president but the electorate doesn’t seem to want that at the moment.

I’d argue that Sanders’ lack of success in the polls is due more to voters’ perceived safety in choosing a moderate to beat Trump rather than disapproval of Sanders’ policies. Everyone has become a pundit and believes that the electorate will only tolerate a moderate while many of those same voters voice approval of progressive agenda items like Medicare For All.

Americans are seeing now more than ever just how much they’re valued when our system fails. Unfortunately, it’s going to result in hundreds of thousands and deaths and ruined futures for so many more.

Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by gitrog on Thursday April 02, 2020 @08:26AM (#22758208)
If you're going to downvote save_ferris, at least have the decency to give a rebuttal?
Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by bilbo0s on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:46PM (#22752186)
The masks thing is not about a power asymmetry, it's about extended use protocols. There is a critical shortage of equipment, and the hospital has to make it last.

Now why hospitals are demanding that doctors keep quiet about the consequences of emergency operations under extended use protocols? That's an entirely separate issue. Those hospitals should be named and shamed.

But I completely understand restricting PPE to needed areas. The solution to that is to manufacture more PPE. But if we're not going to do that then extended use protocols are just military sense.

Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by throwawaylalala on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:36PM (#22752077)
They can call in sick.
Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by amarshall on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:38PM (#22752097)
Calling in sick in medicine typically gets one of your peers called in instead, putting them at-risk instead of you for that shift.
Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by joshstrange on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @03:02PM (#22752381)
And this is the shitty part, nurses have to choose between their own safety and that of their coworkers/patients. I am extremely worried for some close friends of mine who are nurses and have either preexisting conditions or are older. Those administrators can either get on the floor with the same lack of PPE or STFU in my opinion, it's downright criminal what they are saying and I hope when this is over they will be held to account.