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Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by lotsofpulp on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:12PM (#22751797)
How would the value they create or "fair pay" be measured?
Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by missedthecue on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:22PM (#22751906)
Things like "fair pay" and "living wage" are political talking points.

In short, what the living wage is really about is not living standards, or economics, but morality. Its advocates refuse to come to terms with the fact that wages are market price–determined by supply and demand, the same as the price of oil, steel, corn, or coal. And it is for that reason, rather than the practical details, that the broader political movement of which the demand for a living wage is the leading edge is ultimately doomed to failure: For the amorality of the market economy is part of its essence, and cannot be legislated away.

Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by lotsofpulp on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:30PM (#22752014)
I think the doom to failure part is due to a scarcity of resources (especially an environment to pollute), which inherently causes distribution issues.

If the world had an infinite number of detached single family homes in places with fresh water and secure food supplies and good weather, making things "fair" would be quite easy. We can certainly do better than we currently are, but the underlying reason things aren't fair is that nature doesn't offer fair.

Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by thatcat on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:45PM (#22752175)
Lol, the price of corn, or even oil, coal, and steel are constantly adjusted by gov policies. You've proven the opposite of your point - market price is political and can be controlled when it is politically favorable.
Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by missedthecue on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @05:12PM (#22753569)
You've missed the point of my comment. I never said that the government can't manipulate markets through price floors, ceilings, or subsidies.

I said the market system is amoral. We can't will it to do what we want. You can't force a job to suddenly create $20/hr of economic value by placing a mandatory $20/hr price on it. Basic mathematics doesn't allow that.

Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by thatcat on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @10:44PM (#22755792)
The market and it's values are a manifestation of the people participating in the market and therefore the any morality or values a market has would simply be a reflection of the values and morality of those people.
Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by bluGill on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @04:38PM (#22753272)
There is political intervention, but even that works in context of the market and so can only go so far.
Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by thatcat on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @05:08PM (#22753537)
You could just as easily say it's the market that works in the context of politics, the market can only go so far, due to policy limits. I.e you can't build a nuclear reactor without approval so policy can durectly control market competition.
Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by bluGill on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @10:01PM (#22755582)
You could, but you would be wrong as the market is universal. You can manipulate it, but ultimately it limits what you can do.
Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by thatcat on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @10:35PM (#22755753)
the market is a social construct just like politics, there is nothing universal about it
Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by bluGill on Thursday April 02, 2020 @05:13PM (#22763937)
All children discover it though, so it is universal to humans. A few other animals have it as well.
Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by thatcat on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:42PM (#22752140)
Lol, the price of corn, or even oil, coal, and steel are constantly adjusted by gov. You've proven the opposite of your point - market price is political and can be controlled when it is politically favorable.
Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by jnwatson on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:50PM (#22752234)
The government doesn't control the price of corn, oil, coal, or steel except indirectly via government policy.
Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by burkaman on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @03:01PM (#22752358)
Subsidies paid directly to farmers are not indirect. The Energy Policy Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Policy_Act_of_2005), which sets a mandatory minimum amount of corn that must be made into ethanol, is not indirect.
Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by viklove on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @04:29PM (#22753203)
Turns out we value corn more than the people who farm corn. What a time to be alive.
Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by munk-a on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @03:01PM (#22752367)
For Oil the US has a strategic reserve that they dole out whenever they need to appease the public - you could say this is an indirect effect, but selling it for cheap on the open market to drive the price down is reeeeally close to just directly setting the price.
Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by bilbo0s on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:34PM (#22752059)
>How would the value they create [...] be measured?

Even if it could, that value would be so enormous that there are simple economic constraints on what's possible in terms of remuneration. Lot's of people are allocated what are probably criminally small portions of the value they create.

For instance, if the sanitation engineers in a city disappeared, you wouldn't want to be in that city 3 months later. The city's streets would be filled with rotting garbage, and that would be the least of it's problems. Its grey- and black- water processing systems would be long since collapsed. And that city'd better hope that no industrial actors took the opportunity to dispense of troublesome pollutants despite the lack of a functioning sanitation system.

The thing is, despite the critical importance of the guys running our sanitation systems, and the enormous value the environment they maintain confers on us, in my own city, not one of them makes USD300 grand a year. (Or even USD200 grand. You get the idea.) A lot of civilization collapses without them, but they are still some of the lowest paid professionals in all of engineering.

All that's due to the same economic limitations that constrict remuneration for farmworkers. They are absolutely essential. They create enormous value. Unfortunately, the way the system is set up, there is not much in the way of resources to reward them.

We can discuss changing the system, but I doubt most people would like the outcome of that exercise. That would definitely go under "Be careful what you wish for."

Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by lotsofpulp on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:58PM (#22752325)
>Lot's of people are allocated what are probably criminally small portions of the value they create.

My comment was written to elucidate why "value they create" is a useless sentiment. For example, none of the paintings in Louvre or whatever museum have any value to me. But they do to other people, so it would be impossible to have a consensus on "value". Some people like strawberries and would value them more than people who don't like strawberries.

The purpose of paying someone is to perform the desired work. The amount paid is the signal to the person performing the work that the work you want to be done should be done rather than someone else's.

The purpose of paying someone is not to provide them with some nebulous concept of value or to make sure they have a minimum standard of housing and fed, etc. Those goals should be accomplished by other means (UBI or some other type of societal welfare system).

Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by groby_b on Thursday April 02, 2020 @12:45PM (#22760895)
The purpose in our current societal system

Our form of greed-centered capitalism is not some inevitable natural truth. We've chosen to live that way. We can choose otherways. We can choose to pay people to recognize their contributions to society, as opposed to how much they do to enrich an individual. We can choose to ensure everybody has decent living conditions, no matter what to do. We can choose to live vast swaths of humanity in dirt and squalor. We can choose to commit collective suicide.

It's up to us. Right now? It's a point where events are pushing us to consider our choices.

Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by lotsofpulp on Thursday April 02, 2020 @04:02PM (#22763099)
>We can choose to pay people to recognize their contributions to society, as opposed to how much they do to enrich an individual.

You have yet to provide a formula with which to calculate this amount. And since it's such a complicated concept, I'm going to go ahead and assume it's impossible to calculate.

Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by JoeAltmaier on Thursday April 02, 2020 @12:48PM (#22760934)
That sounds wrong. It is a natural truth, that if somebody will do a job for less, folks will hire that one instead. Competition, capitalism are a reasonable fallout of currency and trade.

We can choose some things, but not how a free market behaves. And experiments in non-free markets have not gone so well (see Chile, Venezuela etc etc).

Like it or not, I don't think I have this wrong. Wishing isn't the same as logic.

Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by groby_b on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:19PM (#22751873)
"fair pay" -> well, let's start with "treated like human beings, not chattel", "afforded basic hygiene & health measures", "kept safe in a crisis".

From there, we get to "would you die without them? If yes, maybe they're underpaid. Maybe $18K a year just isn't fair pay under any circumstances, not if we can't force people via a "well, you could always die" clause.

As for the value they create - you have food available to you. How valuable is that to you? Would you like it if farm workers applied the "well, you could always die or do it yourself" clause?

Because at some point, that becomes an option.

Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by lotsofpulp on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:25PM (#22751957)
If I were a business owner trying to figure out how much to pay, I would not be able to deduce the numerical figure from your comment.

I understand what you're saying, my intention is to display how easy it is to say, but how difficult it is to execute. Currently, we pay people what it costs to replace them, but it would be nice if we could snap our fingers and give everyone a global standard of living equal to whatever the top 5% live in. Unfortunately, that's not possible, and short of a country wide or world wide effort to implement some type of UBI, I don't see much chance of success.

Re:Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawb... by groby_b on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @05:20PM (#22753644)
"If I were a business owner trying to figure out how much to pay, I would not be able to deduce the numerical figure from your comment."

That's OK, I'm happy to help you with regulation.