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Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by al_chemist on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @11:39AM (#22738585)
> You don't build wealth by saving. You do it by investing using leverage.

For some reason, this sounds like "you don't build wealth by saving. You do it by lottery and scratchcards!"

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by ilikerashers on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @11:52AM (#22738749)
You're equating buying a house to buying a lottery ticket. These are opposite ends of the risk scale.

These are not alike in any way.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by Ididntdothis on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:05PM (#22738912)
Ten years ago a lot of people learned that housing is not as safe as they thought.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by abstractbarista on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:33PM (#22739311)
It actually is. You just can't be over-leveraged. The bank will give you waaayy more money than should ever responsibly be taken. Combined with emergency savings, you are quite safe as a homeowner.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by amiga_500 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:05PM (#22741205)
And how do you bid in a market where every house has >1 bidder and banks are lending waaayy more than is responsible?
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by voisin on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @11:19PM (#22745303)
This! The housing market seems to have punished anyone with a conservative financial mindset.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by amiga_500 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @11:53PM (#22745476)
It forces you to fight with the least conservative, and the banks pour on more and more credit to appropriate ever greater swathes of national surplus.

No doubt someone will say "you don't have to buy", but then you have to rent. Forever. Because they keep bailing out housing.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by Ididntdothis on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:38PM (#22739369)
Yes if you stay within your limits. But if you start loading up on debt because of low interest then things can go bad very quickly. So the advice go stop saving is bad.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by tathougies on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:37PM (#22741586)
No. They learned that buying a house with ridiculous terms and unlimited downside is not as safe as they were deluded to believe. Even in 2008, most people paid their mortgages, and were fine, housing wise.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by elsewhen on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:02PM (#22738877)
I agree that lotteries are close to one side of the risk scale but real estate is closer to the middle than to the other extreme. The other extreme is U.S. treasuries. The last recession was a great illustration of the risk inherent in real estate.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by SketchySeaBeast on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:19PM (#22739125)
And the US treasuries won't even keep up with inflation. If you invested yesterday you'd need to lock in for at least 20 years before you got even 1% return.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by adaisadais on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @11:57AM (#22738815)
Warren Buffett talks about how cash is a bad thing to have over time as it can’t keep up inflation (1). He does advocating having enough on hand to “sleep at night”. But you really can’t build wealth by stocking money away in a savings account.

Trump and his administration could have really done something awesome. He essentially got given the golden ticket for presidents: create a legacy. T. Roosevelt had parka, FDR had the new deal. Eisenhower built highways (which he copied from Hitler’s autobahn). JFK said we would put a man on the moon (and ultimately did).

Trump could have said hey, let’s build high speed rail across our country! Let’s reinforce our highways. Let’s dump a bunch of money into building new schools or paying teachers more. When the virus is gone the economy will be humming! The markets would have soared. The U.S. would have had something qualitative to show for the $2T line of debt we just took out on ourselves.

(1) https://www.cheatsheet.com/uncategorized/history-and-warren-...

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by s1t5 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:35PM (#22739327)
In the meantime Buffett currently holds more cash than just about anyone else on the planet - over $120 billion in cash equivalents at the end of last year.

Yes, his point that cash loses its value over time is true. No, he didn't get to where he is just by holding cash. Yes, your situation and mine are vastly different from Buffett's.

But it just shows that things aren't as simple as "cash=bad".

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by tathougies on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:43PM (#22739425)
Cash equivalents include commercial paper and bonds. Cash equivalents are not the same as cash.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by bwanab on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:54PM (#22740325)
There’s a reason they’re called cash “equivalents”.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by tathougies on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:38PM (#22741593)
Um right, but commercial paper and bonds have interest rates, unlike normal cash. So while they're easily converted to cash, they do not suffer as badly from inflation.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by quickthrower2 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @11:15PM (#22745265)
They also carry risk of default.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by m11a on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:57PM (#22740375)
Those presidents had remote wars and recessions as their triggers.

Trump has a pandemic. Ultimately, you can't really go out and build a high speed railway during a pandemic, when you want to enforce social distancing and isolations (construction is the opposite to social distancing). And the US is so big that high speed rail would still be an awful way to go cross-country (it's only really effective within states), perhaps effective for transporting goods but a guess on the data suggests this isn't economic. Dumping money into schools won't fix education, either.

Trump could've perhaps weaponised coronavirus better, but not by through of these ways. That said, he has chartered a course for the most 'socialist' action in recent American history, though: free money. I'd like to see if and how this impacts the future, perhaps it may affect the timeline of implementing a UBI.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by Supermancho on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:11PM (#22740531)
> Dumping money into schools won't fix education, either.

Depending on what you mean by "fix". If colleges payed Silicon Valley salaries, I think the quality of College Education would soar.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by DuskStar on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:41PM (#22741623)
That's not what is generally meant by dumping money into education (normally it refers to primary/secondary education), but I think it holds true here too. After all, we're putting FAR more money into colleges than we did 20 years ago, but very little of that money is going to the professors and it's VERY debatable if there's been any improvement to outcomes due too that funding increase.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by sigstoat on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @11:55AM (#22738786)
> For some reason

unfamiliarity with the term "leverage", probably

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by dgacmu on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @11:48AM (#22738701)
Agreed, the GP phrased this poorly. You build wealth by saving and investing the savings in a way that has an appropriate balance of risk and returns for your life circumstances. That may or may not involve leverage.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by tathougies on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:40PM (#22739395)
This is absolutely bonkers. Leverage is not the lottery. IS buying a house a lottery? Then why is other property different?
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by burntoutfire on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:52PM (#22739534)
Buying it during a housing market bubble is - you can't effectively tell if the bubble will pop or keep growing.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by AndrewKemendo on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:16PM (#22739077)
I agree with this, it's basically just a more sophisticated version of gambling.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by nemonemo on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:06PM (#22738922)
That is not true. There are nearly risk-free methods of making investment returns, and when the upside is small but risk is minimal, leverage is the way to amplify the upside. Playing lottery means high risk of losing money and that is not an investment, though the line may seem blurry. (Some turn lottery into a reasonable investment, so it is truly blurry.)
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by amiga_500 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:01PM (#22741169)
> There are nearly risk-free methods of making investment returns

This is a problem. The "risk free returns" are state enabled rentier schemes. They are not only "risk free", they are also "effort free".

If someone is taking a free ride they are a rentier.

If you have a lot of these people, overall living standards tank.

If it becomes the only paradigm that people can imagine making a difference, you are on the road to total collapse.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by SketchySeaBeast on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:17PM (#22739087)
> There are nearly risk-free methods of making investment returns

Do you have suggestions for these?

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by mkaymalright on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:33PM (#22739302)
Spot-Futures arbitrage, especially if your brokers allows you to collateralize your futures position with the profits from your spot position which would allow for higher leverage on the futures side.

Let's say the futures price is higher than the spot price and there is 3 months left until maturity. You sell the same (USD equivalent) amount in the future (expensive) and buy in the spot (cheap). You just made a profit and no matter where the price goes - you're hedged. The only thing is that you're stuck with 2 positions now. Just wait 3 months until maturity and the futures and spot price will converge to the same price. Now buy in the futures and sell in the spot and you've done it!

Of course, while being pretty much risk free the upside is also limited to how much (percentually) the future is above/below the spot.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by solaxun on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:48PM (#22740248)
And please tell me... how often is the cash and carry spread there enough to cover the typical margin fees charged to retail investors?
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by chvid on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:41PM (#22739412)
No.

Buy a house and some stocks in growth sectors.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by brobinson on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:36PM (#22740870)
Being long-only is great when everything is going up.

As for me, I like to hedge out the market and sector movements by being long/short (adjusted for beta) within a given sector. I only make money if my long outperforms my short. Trump tweets and other companies' earnings in the sector do not affect my P/L.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by Der_Einzige on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:18PM (#22739843)
No - You're wrong and the person you're replying to is right.

Futures are how you multiply your money with relatively low risk. Stocks are how you get 5% returns amortized YOY if you're lucky

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by oh_sigh on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:39PM (#22740127)
Why is there all this free money sitting in the futures market?
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by saiya-jin on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:31PM (#22740805)
Yeah I wonder why on earth is any professional trader doing anything else rather than methods described. Those amateurs, right? Money sitting there for free... give me a break.

I don't need to be a finance expert to know when somebody sells a snake oil - things that sound too good to be true most often are.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by brobinson on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:47PM (#22741011)
Cost of carry.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by SketchySeaBeast on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:07PM (#22741229)
So then would it help to scale it or not?
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by ping_pong on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @11:51AM (#22738741)
That's because you don't understand finance.

Leverage is the easiest way to make a larger percentage on your money, as long as it's used prudently.

Borrowing money to buy real estate and then collect income is a very common way to leverage your money. Over time that builds real wealth. My friend has bought 5 properties and is renting them all out. When he retires, the properties will have been paid for, and the rental money will act like his pension until he dies.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by marcus_holmes on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:35PM (#22739331)
Which is great in a rising market, but will ruin him when the market falls (which it looks like it's about to do).

Leverage works both ways, it will amplify both gains and losses.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by gnopgnip on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @05:40PM (#22742924)
Leverage does not work the same way for real estate. There is no margin call like there is with stock. Even if you are upside down on the mortgage in many cases you are still cashflow positive and can ride it out. And if you are not, even in recourse states in practice the losses are not amplified and a strategic default, deed in lieu, or short sale are still possible.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by marcus_holmes on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @05:19AM (#22746973)
Utterly not true outside the US. I've seen lots of people in negative equity, unable to afford the mortgage and unable to sell (the mortgage liability doesn't go away if you sell the property. If the mortgage is bigger than the current house price, selling doesn't help). People with multiple properties and multiple mortgages are in worse trouble. It's very easy to go bankrupt in this situation, I've seen it happen.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by pba on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:57PM (#22739592)
The market falling as a whole does not mean that every single individual investment one could have a position in during that time loses value.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by soperj on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:02PM (#22738859)
That's fine unless he was in Detroit.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by mindslight on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:01PM (#22738853)
> Borrowing money to buy real estate and then collect income is a very common way to leverage your money. Over time that builds real wealth. My friend has bought 5 properties and is renting them all out

This only "builds real wealth" for one person. For the larger system consisting of all 6 people, it's a net loss (the interest payments are still leaving, upwards). We've built a financial system where it is in everybody's self interest to make everybody else worse off.

The positive sum progress from the economy was enough to outrun this setup when there was abundant energy and foreign countries to colonize, hence the focus on "growth". But that era is over, and we're now stuck with a black hole of debt that still needs to be serviced...

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by marcus_holmes on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:37PM (#22739358)
I used to own a house. Now I rent. The ability to walk away from the obligations that house-owning involve is worth a lot of money to me. I probably lose financially, maybe, but meanwhile I get to have a much better standard of living.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by bumpkinjunkie on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:05PM (#22740469)
I'm in the same boat (or, house...boats are not great investments)

The justifications/case for home ownership can often be over-hyped. Everything works out well in a rising market. When shit hits the fan, sure my landlord can raise my rent, but I can move to another city for a better job with a very minimal hit. The stock market has created higher long term gains than the real estate market and is a hell of a lot more liquid.

The fact that people say your house is an "asset" is abuse of the definition and IMHO drives people to buy more house than they need. Sure it's an asset, but you also live there. Your liquidity is greatly reduced and your options become very limited.

Rental properties are another story. If you know what you're doing and can afford it, then I don't see issues with using that as an investing strategy. Just maybe don't buy all of them in the same city, or the same type of property. Just like with stocks and side hustles, diversification is important.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by mancerayder on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:06PM (#22739693)
Ditto. And in this crisis, they're suspending evictions and presumably suspending mortgage payments too. I feel very lucky to have gotten out of that chain. Now I'm renting and fairly comfortable compared to the much larger structure I used to own which included land (now I'm in a one bedroom condo). I just wish I could drill a pull-up bar and TV articulating arm into the wall.

However, I'm able to rent and live in a much nicer area than where I could afford to buy.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by marcus_holmes on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:06PM (#22741208)
I recently moved to Berlin, and the whole rental market here is awesome. Rent controls mean the rents aren't huge (but they are rising because of the high demand). But the amazing thing (to someone from UK/Australia anyway) is that I can repaint, make alterations, drill holes in the walls, etc. I might have to put it back the way it was at the end, but the landlord can't stop me from doing what I like to the place while I'm here. A whole different attitude to renting.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by tathougies on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:41PM (#22741620)
> I might have to put it back the way it was at the end, but the landlord can't stop me from doing what I like to the place while I'm here. A whole different attitude to renting.

This is the same in the US, FWIW. Most landlords aren't going to care what you do, as long as you don't damage common areas and return it in mint conditoin.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by mancerayder on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:53PM (#22742439)
Nah, it depends on the building rules. There's no such law. In my building you need to give a deposit just to install curtain rods, for example, or hang a TV.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by pjc50 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:39PM (#22742287)
I'm rather surprised; the inabiilty to paint the walls or put up pictures or have pets? The knowledge that you might have to leave at short notice?
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by marcus_holmes on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @05:15AM (#22746957)
I don't have pets - I'm not able to commit to 10+ years of being able to look after them, so I don't have them. This isn't due to renting, but due to me being bored with places easily.

I can paint the walls, put up pictures (Berlin has better rules than UK/Australia). Not that I do when I can.

I've only been evicted a couple of times, and even then I wanted to move anyway so it was convenient. It's usually me/us moving on and the landlord annoyed that they have to find a new tenant.

And don't forget the wonderful bonus of anything that goes wrong being someone else's problem. Roof leaking? Phone the landlord. Rising damp? Phone the landlord. Mold problems? Neighbours building a new fence? Frost damage to the pathway? Pipes frozen? Window cracked? All not my problem.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by tathougies on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:42PM (#22739415)
That's why we have a stock market, a futures market, businesses, etc. The commenter above gave an example of a real estate investor. That is a particular type of investor which has to deal with some particular kinds of risk that not everyone is suited to or wants to deal with. For those people, there are other investments they would be good at, and they should engage in.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by mindslight on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:33PM (#22740829)
You didn't actually respond to my points, but just pointed out the existence of other types of business where the centralizing flow is less obvious than real estate.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by tathougies on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:40PM (#22741607)
If everyone participates in acquiring assets, then everyone builds wealth. Your claim is that real estate builds wealth for one person (or in aggregate, particular people). This is certainly true. If there are 300 million Americans, then, if everyone were a landlord holding 4 other properties (other than their house), only 60 million Americans could benefit from real estate. However, the other 240 million could benefit from owning a business, or owning a stake in one, or owning any of the myriad of assets available to invest in.

Societal wealth is built by one person building a lot of wealth based on others paying him, and just replicating that millions of times over the population.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by mindslight on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:23PM (#22742110)
> Your claim is that real estate builds wealth for one person (or in aggregate, particular people).

No, leaving out the critical piece does not represent my claim. Rather you're just shoehorning into the traditional narrative that each person trying to build the most individual wealth inductively extrapolates to society as a whole becoming richer.

The critical part of my claim is:

> For the larger system consisting of all 6 people, it's a net loss

Not merely a loss for 5 and a gain for 1, but a net loss for all 6 parties summed together. Draw a boundary around them and analyze cross-boundary flow. The interest payments flow away, meaning the group is worse off even though the landlord individually benefits.

Our economy is based around debt rather than positive wealth. For someone to have financial wealth, others must be in debt. The shining ideal where everybody is financially independent is impossible under the current system. And the more the financial bubble grows in relation to actual physical wealth, the truer this becomes.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by jbay808 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:42PM (#22741633)
If it was so certain to work, why we would anyone lend me money to do it when they could just buy the property themselves?