My undergrad is very focused on self-study. Prof's have gone the the extent of saying, "I won't waste time showing you this, you could just go on youtube". Flipped classroom models are increasing and the focus is again, on self study.

I'd say online doesn't work for all programs or courses. But do you need to sit in a room with 1k people in order to learn calc 1? It's just the prof going through some examples on the powerpoint/overhead nothing more. Asking questions isn't easy either.

Upload some lecture videos and then hold office hours instead of lecture hours. It's not like what you taught in psyc 100 last semester is much different than this.

> My undergrad is very focused on self-study. Prof's have gone the the extent of saying, "I won't waste time showing you this, you could just go on youtube". Flipped classroom models are increasing and the focus is again, on self study.

What university is that? It sounds awful.

> But do you need to sit in a room with 1k people in order to learn calc 1? It's just the prof going through some examples on the powerpoint/overhead nothing more. Asking questions isn't easy either.

> Upload some lecture videos and then hold office hours instead of lecture hours. It's not like what you taught in psyc 100 last semester is much different than this.

That's only kinda true of 100-level courses and massively popular generals, and quickly becomes false the farther you advance.

And even if it is a 100-level general, you can still ask questions if you're motivated and curious. When I was considering a career change, I retook general chemistry and a few other lower-level science courses as an adult. I asked a lot of questions, though many were picking at things that were too advanced for the course. You can't do that with a recording.

> What university is that? It sounds awful.

Rather not say, but a few do that. Plus in something like CS there's an hour long wait for office hours which are 2 hours twice a week with maybe 3 profs - so 6 hours for 500+ students - not much opportunity to ask questions.

> That's only kinda true of 100-level courses and massively popular generals, and quickly becomes false the farther you advance.

Absolutely. Get rid of the 1k lecture theatres for the undergrad courses and build some labs. Get some 3D printers/CNC machines for the Engineering students. A mock court room for the Law department? Some chemistry labs? Move the "I don't need to be here to learn" courses online and expand office hours, TA availability and provide more hands on experience.

Ya, I wouldn't want to see a doctor who learned online. But one how took some calc or basic med courses online but has more hands on/practical experience? Sure!

> "You just don't get this with online or remote learning."

I have learned literally more than 99% of my knowledgefrom strangers on the internet and ad hoc conversations on irc and reddit.

> I have learned literally more than 99% of my knowledge[ ]from strangers on the internet and ad hoc conversations on irc and reddit.

So? What's your "knowledge" and who were the strangers that taught it to you? It could be anywhere from Alexander Graham Bell to Alex Jones, but knowing IRC and Reddit, my money is that it's closer to the latter than the former.

I am a programmer by profession and I have a degree in computer science. My college taught me probably 1% of what i know, 99% of my knowledge is by suggestions from strangers on internet. You asked who those those strangers are. I don't know, that why they are called strangers. When i came across "How to be a Hacker" by eric raymond. It taught me how to learn on internet(asking questions). Then book suggestions from strangers on internet(examle: stackoverflow recommended books for programming) helped a lot to widen the knowledge. And for inspiration watching live 10+hr straight coding by George Hotz, direct replies from my heros John Carmack, Jonathon Blow on twitter and youtube comments is doing a pretty good job. I have done a few courses over coursera, and currently learning category theory. Internet education wins big easily over college education. May be college is required to inspire people but not educate them. That is obsoleted, because internet does that much better job.

Username checks out

> The impact that ad hoc conversations and events with peers and professors have is profound

Not everyone indulges in "ad hoc conversations and events with professors". Some maybe, but most people just get by with minimal work.

All depends on the course of study and the people you're in it with and your own motivations.

I've done both for a very long time. There used to be value in going to the computer lab and spending hours and hours working through problems with peers and seniors.

But that doesn't happen anymore. I've learned just as much in slack chatrooms with fellow students at Georgia Tech, if not more.

If you want to learn, you'll learn. If you don't, you won't -- no matter what the environment is.

Depends on your field. If you're studying mathematics or computer science, learning happens mostly through deep work in isolation and there's enough material out there (books, papers, etc.) to support more than a lifetime of problem-solving.

Events and conversations might offer superficial exposure to new ideas or areas of interest but actual understanding requires extended, focused thought that nobody else can do for you.

In mathematics it's pretty easy to get stuck and I imagine having a regular 1-on-1s with a tutor could be of great help. (However, Internet forums could to some degree perform similar function).

But we are talking about a bachelor here; for a master or phd I see that point... For a bachelor... not so much. Besides parties with my peers and catching up with sleep in lectures during the bachelor, it got interesting after the bachelor exactly because of what you mention.

Not everyone parties all the time and sleeps through lectures of course. Some undergraduate programs are very academic.

This was academic, but it was rather boring and no one was very serious until I discovered I could get points doing graduate courses, so when getting in to small groups with the professor instead of 100+ people lecture halls (with materials I can just read 1 to 1 from the book or syllabus was not very different than studying online), it got interesting.

But yeah, I guess it depends on a lot of factors; I just can see more benefit from msc/phd physically with peers and profs while bsc is more imaginable as online course. For my feeling at least.

The main reason I feel this way is more about environment and wide learning and cross pollination.

I self studied for a long time, topical, learned online mostly. You can do this, and can be very successful.

The point of academic environments is much like that of an office over remote work. One of the pros is the cross pollination of ideas across expertise barriers. This is where innovation happens, faster and more frequently.

Why would you not be able to have ad hoc conversations or events in an online environment?

For example video chats or text chats or audio chats or VR chats.

Honestly when people make statements like the one you made, it makes me suspect they actually don't understand the internet.

Communication over the internet just isn't the same as in person. It's harder to pick up on subtle social and emotional cues, and generally communication has to be a lot more intentional and explicit.

Plus there's no replacement for the ancient human social tradition of eating a meal with someone after a long day of work.

It depends on if it's a live chat, audio chat, video chat, or VR chat. Not all modes require the same level of explicitness.

It's true that effective text communication in async forms is a skill, but that is a competency that is very important even when not on lockdown.

Any sources to back up this claim?

"The establishment is bullshit and full of wrongness and waste" is just obviously true, but "here are some features of the status quo that might explain its fitness for purpose" is unsubstantiated nonsense requiring documentation.

I don't know why this pattern makes my blood boil, but it does.