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Re:Containment gets harder every day we delay by sneak on Sunday March 15, 2020 @07:13PM (#22587769)
To assume good faith in your question: the point is to slow the spread, and to flatten the curve so that the hospital system is not overburdened and that as few people as possible that need emergency critical medical care fail to receive it.
Re:Containment gets harder every day we delay by JumpCrisscross on Sunday March 15, 2020 @07:16PM (#22587795)
> so that the hospital system is not overburdened

To go one step further, it's to reduce the mortality rate. Mortality when everyone has access to a respirator is one thing. Mortality when hospitals must deny care to thousands is another.

Distancing slows down the rate so we spend more time in the first scenario. (It's too late, now, to entirely avoid it.)

Re:Containment gets harder every day we delay by asjw on Sunday March 15, 2020 @07:31PM (#22587911)
Mortality rate in Italy was high only for people 65 and up.

But lot more have been brought to hospitals for no real reason, once they were there they couldn't be sent home anymore

In fact home confinement has increased a lot once they understood not everyone was in need of medical attention

Hell, we even tested people with no symptoms at the beginning because they said they weren't feeling fine or one of their acquittance had flu in the previous week's

That of course became immediately problematic for the healthcare system

Re:Containment gets harder every day we delay by toyg on Sunday March 15, 2020 @09:55PM (#22588939)
> Mortality rate in Italy was high only for people 65 and up.

Part of the reason mortality rates are so high among the elderly, though, is the fact that they are de-prioritized in cases when there is a scarcity of beds, ventilators, or other stuff. Doctors are forced to concentrate efforts on people with better survival chances, which are typically the youngest.

> home confinement has increased a lot once they understood not everyone was in need of medical attention

This is a double-edged sword though. My father has some contacts in the health service near Bergamo (he was a nurse himself etc etc), and he was told some cases don't even make it to the hospital - they go from cough to full-on pneumonia in less than two hours, and die on the ambulance. They now refer to late afternoon as the critical shift, when the stream of intakes spikes and ensuring they are all treated becomes extremely hard. A lot of these cases might have been saved had they been monitored full-time in a hospital.

Re:Containment gets harder every day we delay by asjw on Monday March 16, 2020 @05:05AM (#22591136)
> they go from cough to full-on pneumonia in less than two hours, and die on the ambulance

From cough to full pneumonia in few ours sounds made up

But people with severe pneumonia that die in the ambulance is not rare

Pneumonia still kills 13 thousands people every year in Italy

Pneumonia has a very high mortality rate, the average for EU is 25/100 thousands while covid-19 is at 2/100 thousands

The flu kills between 9 and 10 thousands people every year in Italy

Most die home because nobody goes to the doctor for a flu usually

If they did, even with light symptoms, we would have the same situation we are having now

Re:Containment gets harder every day we delay by easytiger on Monday March 16, 2020 @07:38PM (#22599547)
> Pneumonia still kills 13 thousands people every year in Italy

In bad epidemic years it kills way more in Italy. 24k in 2017 epidemic

You are absolutely right

Re:Containment gets harder every day we delay by asjw on Monday March 16, 2020 @05:00AM (#22591120)
> Part of the reason mortality rates are so high among the elderly, though, is the fact that they are de-prioritized in cases when there is a scarcity of beds, ventilators, or other stuff.

This is absolutely NOT TRUE

They died because prior conditions made them weaker and a pneumonia at 84 is as deadly as a bullet in the head

Nobody is left to die in Italy

My parents have worked in the healthcare for 40 years before retiring, here we try to save everybody at the best of our abilities

Re:Containment gets harder every day we delay by thu2111 on Monday March 16, 2020 @07:36AM (#22591804)
There's no current scarcity of beds even in Lombardy. Their capacity is (at present) nearly used up, but it's not completely gone yet. And then there's the hospitals in the rest of the country.
Re:Containment gets harder every day we delay by easytiger on Sunday March 15, 2020 @07:37PM (#22587960)
That too is my understanding. Italy really screwed up by turning hospitals into disaster zones. Other countries are not letting people with symptoms near hospitals, even for testing, unless they have severe breathing difficulties
Re:Containment gets harder every day we delay by threatofrain on Sunday March 15, 2020 @07:21PM (#22587836)
So what does that mean in the long run? After virtual lockdown is lifted? A resurgence in winter?
Re:Containment gets harder every day we delay by sdkaufman on Sunday March 15, 2020 @07:51PM (#22588073)
- If we can reduce / avoid overloading hospitals, people who get it after the lockdown will get better treatment and will be less likely to die than if they got it now.

- Over time, we will come up with more effective treatments and perhaps a vaccine. We will likely also have more equipment like ventilators and protective gear at our disposal.

- More people will have had it and built up some level of immunity, and "herd immunity" means it will not spread as quickly.

Re:Containment gets harder every day we delay by mr_toad on Sunday March 15, 2020 @08:25PM (#22588316)
Herd immunity won’t make a significant difference until half the population have had it, and a vaccine could be a year away (if ever).
Re:Containment gets harder every day we delay by threatofrain on Sunday March 15, 2020 @09:45PM (#22588872)
This also all assumes that the virus won't be quickly mutating. If it is, vaccines and herd immunity will have diminished efficacy.
Re:Containment gets harder every day we delay by avip on Sunday March 15, 2020 @08:19PM (#22588265)
In the long run we'll have protocols and procedures, and your physician will have seen hundreds of covid cases before treating you, and the fatality rate will (wishfully, possibly) converge to standard seasonal flu.
Re:Containment gets harder every day we delay by ForHackernews on Sunday March 15, 2020 @07:41PM (#22587992)
If we're really lucky, we might have an effective vaccine by early 2021.
Re:Containment gets harder every day we delay by easytiger on Sunday March 15, 2020 @07:23PM (#22587852)
Surely then it would make sense to only embargo people in identified vulnerable groups? Let the rest of the nation go about their business given they are very very unlikely to have anything bad happen and then, presumably they will stop being infectious even if the virus does get into their system again

And what does it mean to quarantine people? How are they fed? Can they go outside?

You can't get the virus walking down the street past an infected person.

Re:Containment gets harder every day we delay by yulaow on Sunday March 15, 2020 @07:29PM (#22587902)
Repost from another topic: "The professor of intensive care medicine, who himself heads the ICU of the Rotterdam Erasmus MC, emphasizes that it is not only the elderly who are affected by the corona virus. 'What has mainly made the news is that older people die faster. This is about 2.5% of the entire population, while about 15% of the elderly die. But _more_than_half_ of those patients are under fifty years old. It also includes young people."

sources: 1. https://seekingalpha.com/news/3551823-just-seniors-not-clear

2. [original] https://www.ad.nl/dossier-coronavirus/40-a-50-nederlandse-co...

Re:Containment gets harder every day we delay by hk__2 on Sunday March 15, 2020 @07:28PM (#22587892)
> Surely then it would make sense to only embargo people in identified vulnerable groups? Let the rest of the nation go about their business given they are very very unlikely to have anything bad happen and then, presumably they will stop being infectious even if the virus does get into their system again

Vulnerable or not, the rest of the nation is a transmission vector. Also, not all deaths happen among the identified vulnerable groups: "they are very very unlikely to have anything bad happen" is completely false.

Re:Containment gets harder every day we delay by easytiger on Sunday March 15, 2020 @07:41PM (#22587993)
It's not false. The rates of mortality being quoted are fundamentally wrong because testing is highly selective. I personally know people who likely have it, haven't been tested and so don't get counted. The virus is clearly more widespread than 200k infected who have actually been tested.
Re:Containment gets harder every day we delay by Zach_the_Lizard on Sunday March 15, 2020 @07:54PM (#22588092)
> Also, not all deaths happen among the identified vulnerable groups: "they are very very unlikely to have anything bad happen" is completely false.

Even assuming a 4% death rate (too high for the less vulnerable), that's a 96% chance of not having the worst possible consequences. So I'd say that's "very unlikely" for them.

This isn't the flu, and it's possible for even people in their teens to die (true of the flu as well), but let's not act like it's the likely outcome.

I've seen numbers in the 0.2% range for younger (< 39) age cohorts. That's twice as deadly as the flu (0.1%) but IMO not "shut society down" levels of bad for people in that age group.

Re:Containment gets harder every day we delay by rimliu on Sunday March 15, 2020 @07:28PM (#22587893)
That's the idea behind what UK is trying to do, I believe.