News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by Animats on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:02PM (#22585240)
On the ventilator front, a good start would be to order one each of the available ventilators on Alibaba, express shipping. For all the ones that show up, get them examined and tested and torn down if necessary. Publish the results. Get emergency FDA approval. Order in bulk. Make arrangements with the better suppliers to go to three shifts. Arrange for large air shipments of the good ones to where they are needed. Find out if there's something the supplier needs and get it from them. Basically, use money to overcome all normal obstacles to getting those things where they are needed.
Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by timcederman on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:48PM (#22585633)
This is spot on. I emailed officials in my city and county with this suggestion earlier this weekend and received some mild interest. From my research into the situation they do have stock and the current bottleneck is shipping, but stock is making it over in 2-3 weeks.
Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by forkexec on Sunday March 15, 2020 @08:05PM (#22588164)
Ventilators on AliBaba aren't necessarily suitable for keeping human beings alive. It would be better to source them from FDA-approved manufacturers' stocks before wasting lives on untested, untried crap that might not even be real products.
Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by D_Alex on Monday March 16, 2020 @12:54AM (#22590111)
That's why the first step is to order one of each type, and test.
Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by ma2rten on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:22PM (#22585431)
I doubt that there are going to be a bunch of ventilators that you can just order on Alibaba.
Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by jacquesm on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:28PM (#22585489)
Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by projektfu on Sunday March 15, 2020 @10:58PM (#22589362)
First, maybe order veterinary ventilators already existing in the US. And ask veterinary hospitals if you can use theirs.

Alibaba has a lot of listings but most are middlemen. The underlying factory may or may not be able to produce what you want.

China probably has a surplus of ventilators now. Are our countries too proud to ask?

Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by BurningFrog on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:37PM (#22585554)
You can order. But will they arrive?
Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by jacquesm on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:39PM (#22585565)
That is a good question. I suppose there was some stock of these before the crisis but those are very likely all depleted. Still, with this many suppliers it might not hurt to ask. Dutch proverb: "If you don't shoot you will certainly miss".
Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by thaumasiotes on Sunday March 15, 2020 @06:25PM (#22587384)
> Dutch proverb: "If you don't shoot you will certainly miss".

Huh. The idea is certainly around in the US, but I'm kind of surprised I can't think of a matching proverb.

We have a very close match, but it's considered a witty quote from a particular person (no consensus on who) -- "you miss 100% of the shots you don't take".

There's also something along the lines of "you can't get what you don't ask for". There's also an individually attributed version of this: "if you don't ask, you don't get". I had to look this up. There is no really common version.

And of course, there's "ninety percent of success is showing up". Again this is attributed -- quote trackers seem to agree that it should be "80%", not "90%". But this one is common enough that I could see it becoming a proverb eventually. On the other hand, this has gone somewhat afield from "if you don't shoot, you won't hit".

Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by BurningFrog on Sunday March 15, 2020 @07:39PM (#22587979)
"you miss 100% of the shots you don't take" was made famous by Wayne Gretzky, who said he heard it from an old coach.

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/381542/what-was-...

Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by thaumasiotes on Sunday March 15, 2020 @08:01PM (#22588135)
Ah, the answer there provides a more traditional equivalent: nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by OJFord on Monday March 16, 2020 @03:42AM (#22590813)
'got to be in it to win it' is similar w.r.t. winnable (incl. metaphorically) things.

I think it might be an old national (UK) lottery advertising slogan, but it's used generally and proverbially here anyway.

Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by stormtroper1721 on Sunday March 15, 2020 @06:56PM (#22587609)
"You miss 100% of the shots that you don't take" is one
Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by forkexec on Sunday March 15, 2020 @08:14PM (#22588234)
So what about the lawsuits when you throw informed consent out the window to try unproven, unfit products on patients and they die because of failed products that weren't FDA cleared or approved? How many good doctors and hospitals have to close up in order to gamble with patient's lives on untested machines?
Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by lozaning on Sunday March 15, 2020 @09:15PM (#22588627)
Perfect is the enemy of good. If it comes down to no equipment for me, or untested alpha versions, tell me where to sign my name to indemnify the hospital against its risk.

Who said that this consent had to be uninformed?

Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by microcolonel on Sunday March 15, 2020 @06:11PM (#22587285)
For what it's worth, China has literally turned around pending export medical supplies, and banned certain exports. Ventilators seem like they would be on that list, if it has not been withdrawn yet.
Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by forkexec on Sunday March 15, 2020 @08:09PM (#22588201)
And how many of them are real products, already manufactured and FDA-approved?
Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by IanDrake on Sunday March 15, 2020 @08:20PM (#22588281)
At the point when hospitals run out of ventilators, no one denied a ventilator is going to care about FDA approval.
Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by forkexec on Sunday March 15, 2020 @08:48PM (#22588467)
"Denied?" There aren't enough ICU beds or staff to worry about using a Home Depot shop vac as a ventilator yet. A million more beds are needed in US but they won't be built because the ACoE doesn't have a mandate, manpower or the resources to get it done in a few weeks.
Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by ma2rten on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:42PM (#22585589)
Fair enough, but I checked the first one. They were already certified by western agencies.
Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by spodek on Sunday March 15, 2020 @06:29PM (#22587413)
Any tinkerers want to help these low tech versions https://www.notechmagazine.com/2020/03/open-source-breathing...

Helping create versions 3d printable or mass manufacturable could save countless lives.

Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by bacon_waffle on Monday March 16, 2020 @12:58AM (#22590134)
I don't understand the emphasis on homebrew ventilators. Why start at the drawing board, when existing manufacturers have the designs, manufacturing equipment, usage, testing procedures, etc. figured out?

The engineering effort that would go in to a successful maker-ish ventilator would surely be better utilized in other areas.

Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by forkexec on Sunday March 15, 2020 @08:08PM (#22588190)
Ventilators aren't just cobbling together random parts from a Home Depot shop vac in wishful thoughts and prayers that lifesaving devices can be made miraculously usable in weeks. This ain't the movies.
Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by jlokier on Sunday March 15, 2020 @08:35PM (#22588393)
I agree they are not.

But what are you going to do when you or your loved one is assessed as likely to die without ventilation but denied because there isn't one available (or in the USA maybe they prioritise giving it to an insured patient instead).

There you/they are, sent home and told you/they are likely to die unless lucky.

Are you not going to try the cobbled together 3D printed option, even if it probably won't help?

Does that opinion still hold if you try it anyway and start to feel like breathing is better?

Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by forkexec on Sunday March 15, 2020 @08:53PM (#22588495)
There aren't enough ICU beds or nurses to go around by several orders of magnitude, so 3D printing isn't a panacea to anything. It doesn't matter if there were an unlimited supply of FDA-approved ventilators and ECMOs, there aren't enough respiratory therapists, ICU nurses or perfusionists to go around.

My strategy is far simpler. I have one elder to take care of who will be self-isolating for 3-6 months. Not getting sick is superior to relying on a nonexistent, failing medical system on the verge of collapse.

Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by jlokier on Sunday March 15, 2020 @10:28PM (#22589177)
I agree with you that not getting sick is the topmost priority.

The open source ventilator efforts are well-meaning but have a high chance of being close to useless, especiallly without trained medics to go with them, and I agree with others that they might make things worse. We really do need to focus on preventing and reducing transmission first and foremost.

Unfortunately, there remains the question of what are you going to do if your loved one gets sick despite your best effort to prevent it.

The numbers around at the moment suggest there will still be too many of these happening for the hospitals.

Also, unfortunately, many vulnerable people don't have the realistic option to self-isolate.

For example anyone who lives in a cramped house-share and has an existing respiratory condition (asthma etc) is vulnerable, regardless of age, and cannot rely on self-isolation to stay safe unless everyone in the shared house isolates as well. Which they will not.

There are a lot of people in that kind of situation.

Similarly anyone who has a vulnerable partner, in a place that has no spare room for them to isolate in, and at least one of you still has to go out to work to pay for rent and food.

Not getting sick is by far the best option, and preventing transmission is by far the most important thing to do. But unfortunately, we have to explore all realistic alternatives for when that doesn't work, even if those alternatives are a bit desparate and may not help.

One possibility that may be of intermediate use is efforts at building kit that hospitals might be able to use when the proper kit has run out. In that situation there will be trained medics but insufficient equipment. I'm not sure but I think it plausible that an open source ventilator project, especially a well-run one, might be able to help in that sitution.

Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by genbit on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:11PM (#22585316)
Here you go, startup idea: emergency logistics. Company that can quickly ship and verify good quality approved medical equipment and supplies to the epidemic area.
Re:Funding for Covid-19 Projects by jacquesm on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:29PM (#22585495)
That's called the Red Cross.