News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by mtsr on Thursday March 12, 2020 @07:12AM (#22555563)
I interpreted it like this: deaths are less expensive than lost productivity.

This might actually hold given the groups that are the most at risk are probably least productive: the old and the infirm.

Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by Cthulhu_ on Thursday March 12, 2020 @07:14AM (#22555577)
Sounds like some dystopian eugenics shit to be honest, get rid of those who no longer contribute to society.

I for one am working towards my old age, I'd hate to be left to just die.

Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by the8472 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @07:44AM (#22555750)
The outcome may sound dystopian. But once you put monetary value on a life - I think insurances do around a few million per person - then the economic damage will be worth several lives anyway no matter which scenario you choose. And that kind of calculation does make sense because at some point economic damage starts to translate directly to deaths, at the latest when your food and medical supply collapses, probably sooner than that. So you end up trading some deaths for other deaths.

Of course I'm not saying that anyone has done those tradeoffs optimally, especially considering that those relations probably are non-linear in practice.

Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by JediWing on Thursday March 12, 2020 @08:24AM (#22556049)
But we are nowhere near that point. Issue some Fiat money to businesses most heavily impacted. Reduce the spread of the virus. Save lives. Worry about the money later.
Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by AllegedAlec on Thursday March 12, 2020 @07:19AM (#22555614)
> eugenics

That word doesn't work when describing people who are no longer part of the reproducing population.

Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by bujak on Thursday March 12, 2020 @01:49PM (#22559597)
they call it deadwood trimming in corporatespeak
Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by Nasrudith on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:09AM (#22557632)
It is worse than that - a dystopia is a result of humanity's folly. It being favored is a sad inherent result of "evolutionary" systems where it isn't what is more than what is morally right or wrong much less optimal. It rests upon one dumb tautology: All other things equal things which perpetuate spread more than things that do not. The process while producing quite a bit of emergent complexity is fundamentally dumb.

Self perpetuation is fundamentally based only on the implications of the strategy. If keeping elders alive past nominal utility helps spread well then it is effectively favored. Which may or may not be known ahead of time.

That said by being smarter than it we have both the ability and responsibility for the consequences for decisions to follow or defy its nudges as we can and see fit.

Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by helij on Thursday March 12, 2020 @07:18AM (#22555611)
Not aimed at you, but, I am disgusted at even a mention of these kind of 'calculations'.

And yes, I am prepared to take a hit in my earnings, paying higher taxes if needed after this if that is what it takes for at least one person more to live.

Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by benmmurphy on Thursday March 12, 2020 @07:57AM (#22555845)
Another way of thinking about it is that there are other non-coronavirus interventions you can perform that will convert money into lives. if you spend money performing coronavirus interventions then you retard your ability to perform these other interventions that might be more efficient at converting money into lives.
Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by s1artibartfast on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:27AM (#22557829)
>I am disgusted at even a mention of these kind of 'calculations'.

These calculations have to be made because economic impacts also have a death toll. It all comes back to saving lives in the end.

>I am prepared to take a hit in my earnings, paying higher taxes if needed after this if that is what it takes for at least one person more to live.

As a side note, you can do this any time, and unrelated to the pandemic. There are charities you can donate to to save lives if you are so inclined.

Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by Marsymars on Thursday March 12, 2020 @08:40AM (#22556171)
You can save a life for every ~$3k you donate to malaria prevention.
Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by agarden on Thursday March 12, 2020 @09:36AM (#22556645)
No need to wait for a pandemic to donate all superfluous earnings to life-saving causes. There doesn't seem to be a shortage of them.
Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by austhrow743 on Friday March 13, 2020 @05:42AM (#22565935)
Every second you spend on HN instead of moonlighting for extra cash to donate (it goes without saying you already donate your salary beyond what's required for subsistence) is frankly disgusting to me. You're murdering by the second.
Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by 0x8BADF00D on Thursday March 12, 2020 @08:01AM (#22555871)
How about 99% of your income? Your assets? How much is a stranger’s life worth to you.
Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by JediWing on Thursday March 12, 2020 @08:25AM (#22556056)
Slippery slope fallacy. We are nowhere near that point.
Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by mardifoufs on Thursday March 12, 2020 @09:34AM (#22556625)
What? This has nothing to do with the slippery slope fallacy. . It's not because we're aren't there yet that saying that it could happen is a fallacy. With that logic any type of planning or forecast about the virus is just a slippery slope since we aren't there. And If you agree that forecasts about the virus are okay, I dont see why forecasts about the economy depending on what policy is enforced (full isolation that would ruin the economy or allow people to get infected to keep it going) are worst?
Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by JediWing on Thursday March 12, 2020 @09:49AM (#22556785)
It is textbook slippery slope.

Because grandparent said they would sacrifice a realistic tax increase to save lives in the COVID-19 outbreak, the parent asked about a confiscatory 99% tax rate and asset seizure, which would be wholly unnecessary for paying for the current crisis.

Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by mardifoufs on Thursday March 12, 2020 @01:34PM (#22559404)
Yes, current crisis. Everyone agrees on the fact that the virus will probably spread and become much more widespread. Isn't it logical that costs will go up too, especially if the state decides that the economy isn't worth the loss of lives? Is slippery slope just saying that cause and effect exist now?

I don't see how the original comment was unreasonable in asking what is the threshold where economic losses are too high. Halting all economic activity to completely stop the spread of the disease and prevent deaths amounts to a 100% taxation since you are forced to not work and generate revenue. Whether that is acceptable or not isn't my point, but asking the question isn't a fallacy

Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by helij on Thursday March 12, 2020 @08:54PM (#22563702)
There are no economic losses too high as long as loss of life is less.
Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by austhrow743 on Friday March 13, 2020 @05:41AM (#22565931)
They didn't mention confiscation anywhere.
Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by 0x8BADF00D on Thursday March 12, 2020 @05:38PM (#22562069)
You guys missed the point of my post. GP was saying that he found it reprehensible to make calculations on human life. My point was that he had already made such a calculation, implicitly. The value of a stranger to him is exactly worth however % income decrease he's willing to take + % increase in tax. Everyone makes this calculation every day.
Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by antepodius on Thursday March 12, 2020 @07:59AM (#22555850)
Just give some money to an old person, then.
Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by lotsofpulp on Thursday March 12, 2020 @07:13AM (#22555570)
And they’re owed pensions or other tax expenditures like healthcare.
Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by mtsr on Thursday March 12, 2020 @07:13AM (#22555573)
Cynical but probably true.
Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by rcMgD2BwE72F on Thursday March 12, 2020 @07:16AM (#22555589)
Even in the red scenario, the number of people who will end up sick for a long time and require a lot of care outnumbers the death toll.

Caring well is always better than not caring. Unless we won't care in the green scenario either. But then, who think we won't care if we have time and resources?

Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by b0rsuk on Thursday March 12, 2020 @07:25AM (#22555644)
This may explain why sexually-transmitted diseases get so much attention. They're probably the only kind of diseases that hit younger population much harder than senior citizens. THOSE are the diseases that make the rich earn less money.

From an ethical point of view, governments owe seniors the money and care, because they had worked for state prosperity. Also, if young people had more foresight, they would realize the way seniors are treated today will be more less the way they themselves will be treated. But old age and death is a depressing topic and no one likes to dwell on it.

Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by michaelt on Thursday March 12, 2020 @07:55AM (#22555825)
> This may explain why sexually-transmitted diseases get so much attention.

At least in my country, we spend radically more per-capita on healthcare for the old than we do for the young [1] simply because the old need more of it.

For men age 5-45 we spend less than £1000, for men age 80-85 we spend more than £4500. It's a similar story for women, but with a bump for women of childbearing age.

I don't see any evidence of a bias in favour of the working-age population.

[1] http://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/135407/

Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by b0rsuk on Thursday March 12, 2020 @09:17AM (#22556460)
As with many things, there are two ways of looking at this. One is that old people need it the most. Another is that helping younger people is more cost-effective because they have more life ahead of them and if you cure them they're unlikely to get another disease soon. The latter is more heartless, but you can't deny there's some merit to it.
Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by Shmebulock on Thursday March 12, 2020 @08:49AM (#22556232)
"This may explain why sexually-transmitted diseases get so much attention. They're probably the only kind of diseases that hit younger population much harder than senior citizens. THOSE are the diseases that make the rich earn less money."

This seems implausible to me. Given that the rich tend to be of rather old age themselves, I'd wager that they'd invest in preventing their own deaths

Re:Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid... by dx034 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @09:17AM (#22556470)
Of course it's true, but do we want to live in a society where we prioritize economic output over the life of people? Many do not and governments were elected by those.