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Re:CLUI: Building a Graphical Command Line by Cthulhu_ on Friday March 06, 2020 @03:37AM (#22501929)
It's why I use intellij instead of e.g. vim at the moment, I can use a lot of the features and they provide a definite advantage over my previous editor, VS Code, which was also pretty densely packed with features (although it has a much cleaner UI).

The other question is discoverability. I mean I'm sure vim is incredibly powerful, but none of the features are obvious and you have to trudge through two decades of websites to discover anything.

I've been unable to find out (actually I haven't really looked) how to use vim as a software developing tool (with basic features like autocomplete/suggest and error reporting)

Re:CLUI: Building a Graphical Command Line by mpfundstein on Friday March 06, 2020 @04:32AM (#22502198)
I'd arvise you to try vim again. Carve out two days, take your time, dive in and build the ide you want.

I tried all modern ides, and while vscode is certainly awesome, i always go back to my vim :-)

Re:CLUI: Building a Graphical Command Line by atoav on Friday March 06, 2020 @04:36AM (#22502220)
Discoverability certainly is an issue with vim – but it isn't really with Premiere. What I was alluding to with vim was more the combinatoric aspect of powerful tools. Creating software that solves one specific problem with a beautiful UI isn't that hard – creating something that solves a very broad range of problems is infinitly harder, because you need to give the users a language in which they can tell the machine what they want. That "language" can be shortcuts and chainable commands like in vim or it could be graphical, using a timeline, context menues, drop downs, symbols etc.

However: the more expressive this language has to be and the more problems you should be able to solve with it in precision, the steeper the learning curve will get. And as with spoken language, there are hard to learn languages that let you express certain aspects very precisely and there are simpler languages that might be easier to learn but make it harder to express certain things (e.g. "You" in English vs "Du"/"Sie" in German vs. all the formal variablity of Japanese).

Re:CLUI: Building a Graphical Command Line by windock on Friday March 06, 2020 @08:27AM (#22503340)
I use IntelliJ with IdeaVim plugin, that makes it's editor behave like a vim editor (at least pretty close). It is the best of two worlds: real IDE with a powerful and efficient text editor.

As for learning VIM, it is a complex professional editor, and I personally recommend just reading a book about it.

Re:CLUI: Building a Graphical Command Line by smichel17 on Friday March 06, 2020 @06:20AM (#22502737)
Autocomplete with control-p, error reporting from your compiler, outside of vim, although there are plugins for it if you wish (I consider it something of an antifeature, as it distracts me from finishing the code I'm trying to write).
Re:CLUI: Building a Graphical Command Line by 2zcon on Friday March 06, 2020 @11:27AM (#22504835)
>you have to trudge through two decades of websites to discover anything

>type :help<Enter> or <F1> for on-line help

This is not for show!

Re:CLUI: Building a Graphical Command Line by buzzkillington on Friday March 06, 2020 @05:10AM (#22502387)
>I've been unable to find out (actually I haven't really looked) how to use vim as a software developing tool (with basic features like autocomplete/suggest and error reporting)

Vi is a text editor with an incredibly powerful language to edit text tied to keyboard keys.

Emacs is a lisp interpreter that's optimized for text editing.

They are not IDEs.

Re:CLUI: Building a Graphical Command Line by lispm on Friday March 06, 2020 @05:24AM (#22502454)
GNU Emacs comes with a Lisp IDE. Compiler, Interpreter, interactive read-eval-print-loop, backtrace, stepper, code formatting, profiling, source-level debugger, ...
Re:CLUI: Building a Graphical Command Line by jpitz on Friday March 06, 2020 @08:27AM (#22503342)
What do you consider to be the defining set of features for an IDE, and what do you think Vim and Emacs are lacking from that list?
Re:CLUI: Building a Graphical Command Line by mdtusz on Friday March 06, 2020 @09:17AM (#22503707)
They are not integrated.

That said, vim and emacs can be in a way a component of a DIY IDE - you just need to put the work in and build it yourself. I exclusively use vim with a handful of useful plugins, scripts, and additional CLI tools in other terminal splits.

The terminal is my IDE.

Re:CLUI: Building a Graphical Command Line by kragen on Friday March 06, 2020 @10:38AM (#22504371)
The standard way to use Emacs is as an IDE; you use M-x compile to run the compiler in a window under Emacs and M-x gdb to run the debugger in a window under Emacs, in both cases with hypertext capabilities. These are standard packages included in a default Emacs install, although you may want to bind them to more convenient keys. (I bind [f5] to recompile.) You do not need to run Emacs in a terminal, and copy and paste to and from Emacs (not to mention things like viewing SVGs you're editing) works better if you run it in a window on its own. You do not need to "put the work in and build [an IDE] yourself" if you are using Emacs.

(Of course if you're writing programs in Elisp, Emacs is a more tightly integrated IDE, but the success of Emacs, org-mode, Magit, and Amazon notwithstanding, Elisp is not a very good programming language. Also, if you run Emacs in a terminal, you can quite reasonably use it over a low-bandwidth, high-latency ssh -C connection, and it becomes good for remote pair programming, which is not true of running Emacs in VNC. I haven't tried running it in Xpra.)

Historically Emacs started up far too slowly and used far too much RAM to be convenient to use it in the way you're describing, as a text editor invoked by a larger IDE; I remember waiting over a minute for a new Emacs process to start up in the mid-90s. Nowadays it might be reasonable, but it still takes almost 4 seconds on this laptop, which I find to be a painfully long wait for opening a file. Also, Emacs's language-agnostic autocomplete M-/ works a lot better if you have a lot of files open in the same Emacs session.

Although there are packages that configure Vim to work the same way, it is more common to use Vim in the way you describe, as a component of the IDE rather than an IDE in its own right. And Vim has the great advantage that it starts up instantly, and the advantage or disadvantage that its equivalent of M-/ (^P and ^N) is buffer-scoped, so it doesn't matter if you have more files open.

Re:CLUI: Building a Graphical Command Line by sedachv on Friday March 06, 2020 @12:18PM (#22505351)
> Nowadays it might be reasonable, but it still takes almost 4 seconds on this laptop, which I find to be a painfully long wait for opening a file.

That is one of the use cases for emacsclient/Emacs server.

Re:CLUI: Building a Graphical Command Line by kragen on Friday March 06, 2020 @12:50PM (#22505631)
Yes! I should have mentioned that. I mostly use emacsclient as an $EDITOR for git and similar programs in Emacs shell-mode, but you can also use it as a version of Emacs that you can run quickly in a tmux window, if that's what floats your boat!
Re:CLUI: Building a Graphical Command Line by dmos62 on Friday March 06, 2020 @07:57AM (#22503191)
They can be interactive development environments if you configure them as such.
Re:CLUI: Building a Graphical Command Line by kossae on Friday March 06, 2020 @10:04AM (#22504082)
They are certainly evangelized as IDEs.