Might it be worth considering that choosing to not work and choosing to contribute to society in other ways could, for some people and in some circumstances, be slightly different decisions?

There are absolutely people who would contribute to society in other ways but there are also people who would not work, not contribute and, sit in their rooms all day not having the will to do anything but debate with strangers on internet forums(lol). In my opinion the problem with UBI is that it would take away the necessity for people to do something to survive and it would make a significant minority of the population miserable because they wouldn't have to do anything but consume.

> In my opinion the problem with UBI is that it would take away the necessity for people to do something to survive and it would make a significant minority of the population miserable

With all due respect, but this opinion reeks of someone who actually has the ability to choose his own job, say no to exploitative employment-practices, all while actually getting payed decently.

Someone who has to work a shit job they hate for a salary that barely pays the bills because they simply have no other option might as well be miserable because of this situation. This endless slog they cannot escape, a treadmill they despise but have no other choice than to keep going.

And let's not kid ourselves - there are _a lot_ of people out there who are doing jobs they don't want to do, or at least wouldn't want to do for the kind of salary they receive.

> debate with strangers on internet forums

Why do you think this is not a meaningful contribution to society? In order for sitting-in-the-room people to debate on the forums, someone else – a part of society! – has to spend their time on said forums, creating demand for discussion. Otherwise the forums would have no posts at all. One person sitting in the room could effectively “free up” time of dozens others that they could spend otherwise.

There is a lot of things to do other than consume. Even if it's learning to write poetry

Absolutely, there are plenty of things to do other than consume and there are definetly people who would discover that they had a talent at writing poetry, but doing those things require effort that a significant minority would not be ready or willing to make, and consummation is incredibly appealing to those who aren't strong enough to put effort into anything else.

I see where the sentiment is coming from, but I don't agree with the premise of "doing something to survive" being what people need. I think it's the relationship of the person to its community through labour that could be missing (Karl Marks writes about how capitalism fetishizes commodities and removes this relationship in Das Kapital. If you're into this subject it's an interesting read).

I know a senior lady, for example, that works fixing clothes. She doesn't need it to "survive", and sometimes work piles on and becomes another worry on top of other things she needs to think about. But she does it, in part as alternative income but also to keep herself entertained and as a way to relate to her community. She is the person you go to if you need mending, and that's a social relationship. People from the neighborhood will look need her and seek her for this. Receiving or delivering work is also an excuse to interact with people.

Would she go to a factory and fix stranger's clothes even if it were for the same amount of time and money? Probably not. She doesn't need it to survive, she needs it to relate.

So in that sense I do worry that UBI could disincentivize forming these work and exchange relationships or finding your place in a community/society. Just like kids given the choice might pick not to go to school, but eventually this would probably lead them to isolation and not growing in other ways, I wonder if a percentage of adults that haven't realized work can be better than no work could isolate themselves from social and mental growth in the same way.

In general thus I think UBI might work better as a compliment to reformed labour laws. Say, a 4 hour week. Or unionization, to push back on crappy management and predatory workplace policies. A goal should be to have as much people working as possible, but not because they are forced to in order to survive, but because they want to.

Or to not work and not contribute to society.

I’m not opposed to ubi per se, but your enumeration was incomplete.

So is yours actually: You have people who work but whose work doesn't contribute to society (or at least, makes the world a worse place).

But most of those wouldn't be affected that much by UBI, I don't think.

True!

Or could put them out of business forever because they are less keen to work hard than those not living on UBI (for different reasons, it doesn't really make a difference)

I think UBI is a good redistribution strategy if it's truly universal and with not requirements, but work wise I doubt it will change much...

UBI has to be universal to work, or at least phased out slowly to avoid an income trap where working doesn't lead to an increase in income.

We have to accept that some people will accept free subsistence income and not work.

> We have to accept that some people will accept free subsistence income and not work.

It is already like this in many countries.

In Italy it has always been like that at least since the end of WW2.

It has produced one of the largest youth unemployment rate in the west.

Unemployed parents that never worked, grew up disadvantaged kids with no other alternative than become NEETs

In my opinion balancing it out without creating first as many jobs as possible is a really hard task, doomed to fail given the current state of the world politics