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Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by nl on Thursday February 27, 2020 @01:03AM (#22430950)
and ammo

Yeah those type of people always think civilisation is about to collapse. And lots of them are looking forward to it.

Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by chao- on Thursday February 27, 2020 @01:08AM (#22430977)
Well, none of them are the weirdo doomsday prepper types who (as you say) seem to almost look forward to societal collapse in a creepy, power-fantasy way. For these friends and family, it is just a commonly-assumed, shared ethos. They do the same every time a hurricane draws near their part of the gulf coast, and are the first to try and help neighbors, friends or even strangers who need it if those folks are in need.

Stocking up in advance of $WIDELY_REPORTED_THREAT is not something you really question, because it is what you, and everyone you know, has always done for as long as you can remember. Sometimes it has even come in handy and helped people.

Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by nl on Thursday February 27, 2020 @01:11AM (#22430995)
Stocking up on ammo seems very weird for someone outside the US.
Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by cmdshiftf4 on Thursday February 27, 2020 @02:09AM (#22431307)
What's your plan if something does happen, be it this virus, a war or other?

Sit back and wait for the state to save you? I'm not American myself but the lack of self-reliance exhibited by non-Americans, particularly Europeans, is sometimes bewildering.

Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by tarsinge on Thursday February 27, 2020 @04:40AM (#22431943)
Regarding war before the 20th century, Total war[1] was an exception. The plan for European civilians since antiquity was basically life as usual, war was a matter of political power and resources, farms weren't burned and population killed since they were the goal of the war in the first place.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_war

Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by TheAdamAndChe on Thursday February 27, 2020 @08:03AM (#22432826)
Everyone here is raised learning the history of USA, overthrowing a tyrannical empire and creating our own democracy. We're taught that the Constitution was designed with inherant distrust and selfishness of politicians in mind. Many of us in non-urban areas grew up in areas with police response times greater than 20 minutes. All this and more combines into a self-reliant culture somewhat distrustful of the government that makes us ready to protect ourselves and our families. When considering this culture and context, guns and ammo during times of stress makes more sense.
Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by nl on Thursday February 27, 2020 @05:04PM (#22438460)
The plan for European civilians since antiquity was basically life as usual, war was a matter of political power and resources, farms weren't burned and population killed since they were the goal of the war in the first place.

Total war may have been the exception, but farms and cities both suffered enormously during pre-20th century European warfare. Indeed the page you linked gave a bunch of examples of total destruction prior to the 20th century.

Outside those examples, most warfare then relied on looting farms for supplies (including seed crops)[1]. Indeed there was a whole technique of warfare called Chevauchée which relied on this before the 14th century:

A chevauchée [..] was a raiding method of medieval warfare for weakening the enemy, primarily by burning and pillaging enemy territory in order to reduce the productivity of a region, as opposed to siege warfare or wars of conquest... The chevauchée has gained recognition for its use during the Hundred Years' War between the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of France. It was not a new tactic and had been used many times before; for example, William the Conqueror had used the tactic before the Battle of Hastings to encourage Harold to engage in a battle.[2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_warfare#Supplies_and_...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevauchée

Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by nl on Thursday February 27, 2020 @04:06AM (#22431786)
What's your plan if something does happen, be it this virus, a war or other?

This varies very much on the "something". In the case of a virus like this I have plans to do what seems sensible - keep washing my hands, isolate myself as much as possible.

In the case of a war I'll hope my side wins and keep my head down if it doesn't. Not sure stockpiled ammo is going to be the critical factor there!

Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by pinkfoot on Thursday February 27, 2020 @03:14AM (#22431574)
Those who have lived through a failed state know that no amount of personal fire-power will protect you from a ruling-party politician with the local constabulary in his pocket.

But if it makes you feel better…

Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by bart_spoon on Thursday February 27, 2020 @10:57AM (#22434353)
Few are buying guns and ammo to protect themselves from the government. They are buying them to protect themselves from other citizens should riots break out and rule of law break down, even momentarily. In the last 30 years there have been riots in the US after the announcement of the results of criminal trials in which millions of dollars in damages and people attacking each other. People assault each other every year during Black Friday sales. It's not all that absurd of a notion that it might be good to be able to protect oneself in the event of a truly destructive pandemic.
Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by eric-hu on Thursday February 27, 2020 @04:07AM (#22431790)
A more generous interpretation of comment you're replying to: It's not that guns and ammo are useful for resisting your local government. They're saying that in the event of catastrophe, it's not a smart bet to rely on local government for protection from human chaos (like looters after your food).
Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by pinkfoot on Thursday February 27, 2020 @10:15AM (#22433949)
I didn't think my comment was ungenerous - apologies.

What I mean is that evidence shows that when a society collapses, the corrupt and evil will explicitly use the state's monopoly on violence to take what you are trying to defend.

Typically they juice this by exploiting local grievances to de-ligitimise your claim to your property and co-opt the local law enforcement with promises of future gains.

Then they will appear at your homestead WITH the local enforcement - who will do nothing when the mob takes yours assets.

At one level this is to discourage you and increase your sense of isolation - to get you to just abandon your assets and leave. At which point they move onto the next property/resource owner.

However, at another level they WANT to to fight back - with firearms preferably. Not only will this still be deemed illegal (under laws passed by the old functioning society) but hopefully (from their perspective) you injure or kill one of the riled-up mob - further de-legitimising you.

At this point, the co-opted law enforcement will step in, arrest you, etc.

Zimbabwe, the Balkans, and Indonesia are text-book examples.

When society fails violently, there really is no hope.

I wish it wasn't thus, but is is and will be.

Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by Ghjklov on Friday February 28, 2020 @12:04AM (#22440642)
I like to think that police and military personnel have family and friends they care about too, and aren't soulless robots ready to gun down their fellow men and women who they took vows to serve when they joined the force at the command of a suit in Washington. Think, if you were them, what kind of world would you like you, your family, and friends to live in? I find that enough of them would make the right decision that if the PEOPLE fought back, they would have a winning chance. Think about the rest of the world too. Is Russia going to sit back and do nothing, when they could be funding/supporting those rebels against the U.S. government instead? AND they can do it from the moral high ground too, since they're helping the oppressed rebels against a totalitarian government. Extra power.

The U.S. was founded on rebellion. And I believe enough Americans would readily backstab an illegitimate U.S. government (one that has stopped serving its people and instead serves itself) in pursuit of good.

Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by pinkfoot on Friday February 28, 2020 @10:03AM (#22443204)
1. s/I like to think/I like to HOPE/

FTFY

2.The U.S. was founded on rebellion.

So was Somalia. Its not a sufficient reason to protect you from the failure mode I explained above.

Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by Intermernet on Thursday February 27, 2020 @05:07AM (#22432041)
Who causes the degradation of society more? The starving person looting, or the "prepared" person shooting?

I don't have an answer for this, but it's something worth keeping in the back of your mind when discussing theoretical catastrophes.

Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by barry-cotter on Thursday February 27, 2020 @04:22AM (#22431853)
If the army come after you no amount of arms will save you because they have more and they’re better trained. But if you have a defensible position, enough food and ammunition a small armed group can absolutely hold off another small armed group or a much larger worse armed one. Most of these people are no doubt basically LARPing in their heads. See the Koreans during the LA riots. Even against the state a small group can hold out for a relatively long time. See Waco. It took tanks to breach their defenses.
Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by spaginal on Thursday February 27, 2020 @01:45AM (#22431187)
Ammunition is a durable good as long as it’s kept dry and stays for years. In situations you can bargain with it, use it, and in a best case scenario nothing happens and you simply go shoot it for fun. In a worst case scenario... well it’s pretty self explanatory at that point.
Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by watwut on Thursday February 27, 2020 @02:11AM (#22431320)
I don't find worst case there to be self explanatory. People put general "self explanatory" in there, cause they dont want to say what they intend to do with those guns.

I don't recall armed individuals with whatever they stocked for themselves to make difference when real issues happen.

What made difference were organized trained ideological groups with those arms. So, in that case, I am really interested to know which ideological group are those people stocking for - and against who they intend to use those guns.

That is why it dont make sense to stock some ammo in abstract and why the expression is slimmy.

Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by totalZero on Thursday February 27, 2020 @03:07AM (#22431547)
Huh? During the LA riots, Korean shopkeepers were successful in using guns to deter rioters from looting their businesses.
Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by FortCollinsDev on Thursday February 27, 2020 @01:35AM (#22431137)
It seems very weird for someone inside the US.
Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by nitrogen on Thursday February 27, 2020 @01:41AM (#22431160)
It seems a little weird for someone from the semi-rural US, because you probably already had ammo on hand.
Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by LyndsySimon on Thursday February 27, 2020 @02:09AM (#22431306)
I admit I “panic bought” some ammo. It’s for a practical reason, though - my preferred manufacturer for .300 AAC is Australian, and I figure there is at least a chance that the economic disruptions will impact its availability. If so, I picked up as much as I’d normally expect to shoot in the next six months.
Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by distances on Thursday February 27, 2020 @03:36AM (#22431657)
Is owning guns and ammo "for shooting" a hobby throughout the country or just in the more rural areas? I'm wondering what facilities are there for something like that in urban environments.
Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by LyndsySimon on Friday February 28, 2020 @10:01PM (#22448454)
Ranges are far easier to find in urban areas. I live in a town of about 10k, and there is only one pistol range nearby. It opened last year. Before that, you had to either have land or have access to land to shoot.

Hearing gunfire isn’t at all uncommon here. I live right on the edge of city limits, and I doubt a day goes by without being able to hear someone shoot if I’m sitting on my back porch. I totally get that it’s a cultural difference, but it’s very common throughout the US. The only exceptions are very dense urban areas, really.

I’ve heard it said that there are two kinds of places in the US, and they’re categorized by what sound makes you worry. In some places, if you hear an emergency vehicle’s siren you ignore it, but get concerned if you hear gunfire. In others, you ignore the sound of gunfire but get concerned if you hear an emergency vehicle. I definitely live in the latter kind of place.

Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by Pinckney on Thursday February 27, 2020 @03:51AM (#22431733)
Indoor range exist, but they're often expensive and poorly ventilated. People certainly use them, and some indoor ranges even host USPSA or IDPA matches. You'll want access to an outside range for most forms of recreational rifle shooting.
Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by bart_spoon on Thursday February 27, 2020 @11:00AM (#22434376)
There absolutely are. I've only ever lived in Urban and Suburban environments in the US for the last 10 years, and the furthest I've ever been from a gun range is probably 15 minutes.
Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by nitrogen on Thursday February 27, 2020 @04:16AM (#22431832)
The old movie Beverly Hills Cop shows a posh gun club in Beverly Hills, but I have no idea if it was or is there.
Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by downerending on Thursday February 27, 2020 @03:54PM (#22437728)
We're also stocking up on booze, weed, and meth, if that makes it seem less weird.
Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by filoleg on Thursday February 27, 2020 @02:06AM (#22431291)
Well, if you are not able to own a firearm, then yeah, stockpiling ammo would definitely look weird.
Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by distances on Thursday February 27, 2020 @03:42AM (#22431685)
In most countries you definitely can own a gun as long as you have some suitable grounds for that, likely hobby in hunting or range shooting (maybe requiring a club membership). Those just aren't super common hobbies.

Owning a gun just for self-defence isn't generally allowed or needed, and would of course be counterproductive anyway as using lethal force would likely land you in much deeper trouble than the looter would face. I'd end with "rightfully so" but I do realize there are deep cultural differences regarding this point.

Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by filoleg on Thursday February 27, 2020 @05:58PM (#22438894)
I agree with you, but that's exactly what I was talking about. In a place where majority of the people cannot just go and buy a firearm without getting a bunch of special permits and club memberships (with gun ownership being pretty rare to begin with), it would definitely seem weird to stockpile ammo.
Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by infinite8s on Thursday February 27, 2020 @06:54AM (#22432494)
> Owning a gun just for self-defence isn't generally allowed or needed, and would of course be counterproductive anyway as using lethal force would likely land you in much deeper trouble than the looter would face. I'd end with "rightfully so" but I do realize there are deep cultural differences regarding this point.

Not in certain US states (look up "stand-your-ground" laws).

Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by distances on Thursday February 27, 2020 @07:41AM (#22432698)
My reply to the parent was for providing out-of-US view about the circumstances for owning a gun.
Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by remarkEon on Thursday February 27, 2020 @01:05AM (#22430962)
Well, a lot of the folks I know who stockpile ammo are cops or veterans (or both) and as such would very much not be looking forward to any collapse, since they've very likely experienced a taste of what that would actually be like.
Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by prepend on Thursday February 27, 2020 @01:07AM (#22430972)
The measure of interest isn’t that those people exist, it’s whether there are more and how much ammo is bought. That change is of interest to me.
Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by SlowRobotAhead on Thursday February 27, 2020 @01:44AM (#22431181)
I just bought 5k of 9mm... virus unrelated. Season is coming up and I’m out of practice. After these, I’ll have fresh brass and reload. Last year I ran about 15k, this year I bet 8k tops. Just too busy.
Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by prepend on Thursday February 27, 2020 @07:19PM (#22439430)
What season require 9mm?
Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by SlowRobotAhead on Thursday February 27, 2020 @08:40PM (#22439841)
USPSA, IDPA, 3Gun, and teaching/training.
Re:U.S. Identifies First Coronavirus Case Without Outbreak Ties by drKarl on Thursday February 27, 2020 @03:40AM (#22431676)
Well, having ammo at hand would be useful if the virus mutated into a zombie virus...