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Re:Reddit’s profane, greedy traders are shaking up the stock... by zelly on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:48PM (#22429586)
There is no way Wall Street is using trades by retail traders as a signal (except maybe to counter-trade them). Also btw Wall Street can easily differentiate trades made by big players versus hordes of retail traders, because the banks and HFT firms are who executes the trades from retail brokerages. Retail brokerages like Robinhood don't have the authority to execute trades. They subcontract to a HFT firm who then uses the order flow to seek alpha (i.e., countertrade and run circles around clueless retail traders).
Re:Reddit’s profane, greedy traders are shaking up the stock... by vostok on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @11:11PM (#22430375)
What does counter trading and running circles around clueless retail traders mean?

Is that another way of saying that retail traders buy on the offer and sell on the bid while HFTs buy on the bid and sell on the offer?

Re:Reddit’s profane, greedy traders are shaking up the stock... by zelly on Thursday February 27, 2020 @04:26AM (#22431874)
> Is that another way of saying that retail traders buy on the offer and sell on the bid while HFTs buy on the bid and sell on the offer?

This is market making which is the bread and butter of HFTs. This is the one thing they do which helps, not hurts, human traders.

They can do thousands of trades in the time it takes your nervous system to react and click the mouse. They parse a news headline many seconds before it ever shows up on the internet. They rent satellites to count how many trucks leave factories. They have access to person-to-person dark pool trades that never show up on the normal exchanges.

Algorithmic trading is a secretive black box, but who knows. These are just my speculations from hearsay and random research. If they can make a fraction of a cent from messing with you, they will. It can scale up infinitely. It's just software--there's no marginal cost to do so, provided they are properly hedged.

Re:Reddit’s profane, greedy traders are shaking up the stock... by nickles on Thursday February 27, 2020 @09:29AM (#22433527)
Your comment has a lot of misinformation in it.

> This is the one thing they do which helps, not hurts, human traders.

Providing liquidity is their job, and it benefits the market as a whole. If market making by HFTs is a good thing, it’s difficult to malign those same firms for, well, making markets.

> They rent satellites to count how many trucks leave factories.

This isn’t their business model in the slightest. Quant funds certainly do this, but HFTs look for alpha in market microstructure.

> They have access to person-to-person dark pool trades that never show up on the normal exchanges.

Institutional investors can use dark pools to minimize market impact when trade large blocks. HFTs don’t benefit from having limited information on these flows.

> Algorithmic trading is a secretive black box

Algorithmic trading != HFT in the same manner that a rectangle is not a square.

> It can scale up infinitely.

HFT strategies don’t scale. ‘Scalable’ strategies support a large amount of capital. HFTs run high sharpe, low capacity strategies.

Re:Reddit’s profane, greedy traders are shaking up the stock... by rapsey on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @11:52PM (#22430588)
HFT = front running
Re:Reddit’s profane, greedy traders are shaking up the stock... by vecter on Thursday February 27, 2020 @01:34AM (#22431134)
This has been proven false so many times on HN that I can’t even bother to find all of the comments explaining this.
Re:Reddit’s profane, greedy traders are shaking up the stock... by hnews_account_1 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @11:04PM (#22430336)
You contradicted your sentences. I do know Robinhood gives zero commission trades by selling order flow data to hft and market making hedge funds but I don't think those funds execute the orders themselves. The orders still go to brokerages I think (may be wrong about this) or just hit Prime Services from non hft hedge fund books.

Either way, those hft firms definitely like retail order flow data. My guess is they're easier to "pick nickels in front of steamroller" kinda trades than institutional money which may cause extended one way moves that hits high frequency balanced traders adversely.

I'm also entirely talking out of my ass in the last paragraph. I don't actually know that any of what I said is true. Just speculation.

Re:Reddit’s profane, greedy traders are shaking up the stock... by kgwgk on Thursday February 27, 2020 @02:59AM (#22431511)
> selling order flow data to hft and market making hedge funds but I don't think those funds execute the orders themselves

The order flow data is worthless (because the orders come from uninformed traders) the value is in filling them without the risk of being shortchanged (because the orders come from uninformed traders).

Re:Reddit’s profane, greedy traders are shaking up the stock... by hnews_account_1 on Thursday February 27, 2020 @10:24PM (#22440246)
1) order flow data is not useless because it comes from uninformed traders. It depends on the model being used. Most hft models aren't even concerned about the inflow of big trades from institutional money. Most of their models are simple short period time series forecasts they trade around. Which means the model is pretty agnostic on where the trades come from as long as enough back tests show that their predictive power is good enough.

2) even if that were not true, hft works on volumes. So I contradict my previous speculative comment by saying this but volumes of institutional flows absolutely dwarves retail flows. You'd have much more opportunities trading around institutional money than retail money.

Re:Reddit’s profane, greedy traders are shaking up the stock... by pbhjpbhj on Thursday February 27, 2020 @04:21AM (#22431849)
Surely the order flow is mostly going to look like noise, random. But things like local information and employee information would provide some signal - correlated trading patterns - that indicates there could be some information available to inform a trade. Allowing one to either trade on the meta-signal or seek the information behind it (and then trade).

So if you've got a company and the city in which it's headquartered just gets a strong buy signal, sure that could be random but I'd imagine ...

Surely having the meta-data on who is trading and linking that to trades is the primary benefit?

Re:Reddit’s profane, greedy traders are shaking up the stock... by zelly on Thursday February 27, 2020 @04:31AM (#22431891)
I would hope that spying on trades of employees of specific companies would be illegal, but it would not surprise me if Wall Street does use that information.
Re:Reddit’s profane, greedy traders are shaking up the stock... by randomcarbloke on Thursday February 27, 2020 @04:40AM (#22431945)
it isn't illegal and you can do it yourself, there are websites that show in (near) real-time interesting moves by employees/directors of companies liquidating or acquiring shares in their company.
Re:Reddit’s profane, greedy traders are shaking up the stock... by kgwgk on Thursday February 27, 2020 @08:56AM (#22433221)
You get the orders to fill, not the identity if the counterparty as far as I know.
Re:Reddit’s profane, greedy traders are shaking up the stock... by vehementi on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:10PM (#22429711)
This is not true of Interactive Brokers, right?
Re:Reddit’s profane, greedy traders are shaking up the stock... by sitzkrieg on Thursday February 27, 2020 @09:41PM (#22440074)
They run their own exchange and I'm sure they do order flow rebates so not really, but its not detrimental to retails