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Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:44PM (#22428268)
> The device, which is housed in a chip smaller than a grain of rice, enables Internet of Things (IoT) devices to communicate with existing Wi-Fi networks using 5,000 times less power than today’s Wi-Fi radios. It consumes just 28 microwatts of power. And it does so while transmitting data at a rate of 2 megabits per second (a connection fast enough to stream music and most YouTube videos) over a range of up to 21 meters.

Seems like ideally suited to surreptitious surveillance

Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by beambot on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:29PM (#22429480)
It's backscatter tech, which was literally invented for surveillance (see Great Seal Bug [0]) -- modern(ish) versions of which are prominently featured in the NSA's ANT Catalog [1].

This is the same technology as UHF RFID (now Rain RFID). Using dedicated RF carriers rather than ambient WiFi signals, we've demonstrated 100Mbps at 10uW using QAM Backscatter signalling [2]. Similar tech was used to read neural data off of dragonflies in flight [3] or self-contained implantable devices [4].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_ANT_catalog

[2] http://people.ee.duke.edu/~sjt/publications/pdf/2013_Thomas_...

[3] https://www.wired.com/2013/06/dragonfly-backpack-neuron/

[4] http://www.travisdeyle.com/publications/pdf/2017_rfic_implan...

Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by garmaine on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @06:45PM (#22428785)
> The Wi-Fi radio runs on extremely low power by transmitting data via a technique called backscattering. It takes incoming Wi-Fi signals from a nearby device (like a smartphone) or Wi-Fi access point, modifies the signals and encodes its own data onto them, and then reflects the new signals onto a different Wi-Fi channel to another device or access point.

Seems like this chip is purpose built for surreptitious surveillance.

Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by lancepioch on Thursday February 27, 2020 @11:12AM (#22434470)
It looks like it completely depends on there being other types of radio waves and modifying them. If you were security conscious you could either check if radio signals were being modified somehow or just shield off certain rooms (faraday cage).
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by hnuser123456 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @07:16PM (#22429008)
They already said IoT
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by jiangplus on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:32PM (#22430174)
Or IoS: Internet of Surveillance
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by Fnoord on Thursday February 27, 2020 @07:45AM (#22432718)
As the saying goes "the S in IoT stands for security."

As for surveillance. Well, it is a transceiver, hence it can be localized and tracked.

Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by TeMPOraL on Thursday February 27, 2020 @09:12AM (#22433367)
And, IoPO: Internet of Planned Obsolescence.

And, TaaS: Things as a Service.

Because those three are the real reasons companies put radios in consumer widgets. Getting a data stream that can be resold to marketers, getting people to buy more garbage more often, and getting people to pay a regular subscription fee to avoid having to care about buying and disposing of garbage products.

Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by lmilcin on Thursday February 27, 2020 @07:06AM (#22432547)
There is no way to escape this. By advancing IoT we also advance IoS, it is as simple as that.

The way to fight IoS is not by restricting advancement of technology. Even if we wanted, it is already way past it. We can assume governments are years if not decades ahead.

Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by 0xdeadb00f on Thursday February 27, 2020 @07:16AM (#22432584)
Would separate (v)LANs and super strict firewall rules not help somewhat? With the addition of things like DoH it's going to be trickier to "secure", or rather, isolate IoT devices for sure, but _impossible_?
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by spaceribs on Thursday February 27, 2020 @07:37AM (#22432679)
whose to say that your devices can't communicate to the outside world via it's power supply?
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by 0xdeadb00f on Tuesday March 03, 2020 @08:36PM (#22480458)
True that.
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by dboreham on Thursday February 27, 2020 @12:05AM (#22430674)
2Mits will be the signaling rate. You won't get 2Mbits of throughput, more like 1.
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by chubs on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:35PM (#22428190)
I'd love to know how they got the power consumption down so low! 28microwatts when active, that's really something.

Some maths: 0.000025W. A typical AA battery is 1.5V / 2Ah (https://www.powerstream.com/AA-tests.htm). 1.5*2 = 3Wh. 3Wh / 0.000025W = 120000 hours runtime. = 5000 days = 13 years, off a single AA battery.

That can't be right? That's incredible if true.

Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by txcwpalpha on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:53PM (#22428337)
They talk about the technique in the article:

> The Wi-Fi radio runs on extremely low power by transmitting data via a technique called backscattering. It takes incoming Wi-Fi signals from a nearby device (like a smartphone) or Wi-Fi access point, modifies the signals and encodes its own data onto them, and then reflects the new signals onto a different Wi-Fi channel to another device or access point.

It sounds like the device doesn’t actually transmit its own signals, which I believe is what typically requires the most power.

However, I get the feeling from this press release that while the WiFi chip uses less power, this does nothing to reduce the power requirements of the processing chip that is actually using the WiFi chip to communicate. In the article they use a camera as an example in the diagram. Even though the WiFi component might require less juice, you’re still going to need a hefty power supply to power the camera.

Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by simpsond on Thursday February 27, 2020 @01:36AM (#22431143)
That is true, but, there are applications where the majority of the power budget goes to the radio, such as a wireless sensor. I worked with battery powered wifi sensors in the past, and very infrequent transmissions (15 minutes) still accounted for 90+% of the power budget. Average current for a 2-3 second transmission was something like 60-80 mA, with a huge in-rush current on boot. I see this and think it's probably too good to be true in practice for something like that.
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by lmilcin on Thursday February 27, 2020 @07:10AM (#22432561)
Still, the problem with IoT devices is distributing the power to them. It is cheap to have some central device in your home that can have relatively powerful transmitter and sensitive receiver if you can drop a bunch of backscattering devices powered off battery.
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by chubs on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @06:14PM (#22428530)
Ah thanks, that explains it. So i assume it won't work unless something else is also transmitting?
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by Polylactic_acid on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @06:53PM (#22428846)
I'm struggling to find a single use case where this would work. You need 2 wifi APs, regular wifi usage and a device where such aggressive power saving is more important than working reliably.
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by dev_tty01 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @07:09PM (#22428959)
Actually, just 1 AP. It can backscatter signals to the AP from other wifi devices such as phones. Regular wifi usage is not a constraint in most applications.
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by Polylactic_acid on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @07:49PM (#22429248)
Doesn't it say that it has to change to a different wifi channel?
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by wtallis on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:27PM (#22429468)
It sounds like this technique won't work for realtime communication, but that doesn't rule out much of the IoT use cases. As for the 2 APs requirement: when's the last time you've been in range of just one AP, with the 2.4GHz band otherwise quiet?
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by joshspankit on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:50PM (#22429935)
I don’t see anything that says you have to control both APs. Almost everyone in populated areas lives within range of a few neighbour APs.
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by reportgunner on Thursday February 27, 2020 @04:14AM (#22431816)
Marketing is the use case.

Uses New ultra green eco friendly low power wifi technology that is micro sized. Your internet will be FASTER! BUY NOW

Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by airstrike on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @07:24PM (#22429061)
Automated factories
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by generatorguy on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @11:25PM (#22430441)
If you have a factory you run wires to the things that are important for your factory to run.
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by airstrike on Thursday February 27, 2020 @09:48AM (#22433669)
Collecting data from those processes is arguably easier done with Wi-Fi
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by generatorguy on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @04:25PM (#22539314)
Easier but factories are unfriedly to WiFi with all the giant metal structures, high,medium,low voltage power cables, emi noise from motors and VFDs, etc.

WiFi is more difficult to troubleshoot whereas Pretty much anybody can use a cat5 cable tester.

And there are already cable trays and raceways going to all of the different equipment because it uses electricity.

So in the industrial processes I’ve been involved in radio was only used outdoors and when communications cable would have had to have been strung up on poles.

Reliability and ease of troubleshooting are characteristics industry values more than labor saved running cat5, in my experience.

Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by roywiggins on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @07:48PM (#22429243)
Cameras are not entirely out of the question:

https://www.futurity.org/streaming-hd-video-wireless-camera-...

Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by roywiggins on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:52PM (#22428330)
This is the trick, it's using backscatter to piggy-back off nearby wi-fi signals:

> The Wi-Fi radio runs on extremely low power by transmitting data via a technique called backscattering. It takes incoming Wi-Fi signals from a nearby device (like a smartphone) or Wi-Fi access point, modifies the signals and encodes its own data onto them, and then reflects the new signals onto a different Wi-Fi channel to another device or access point.

Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by aneutron on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @06:27PM (#22428633)
"Knows nothing beyond what a patch antenna is" here, and I have a couple of question if you could please answer them:

- Doesn't this degrade the quality of the original signal ? (i.e. some sort of destructive interference)

- Isn't it illegal to interfere in signals this way ?

Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by ac29 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:25PM (#22429458)
If this is reflecting onto a different channel (frequency) then it shouldnt interfere with the original signal (except perhaps by reducing its effective power output by a small amount).

It is a general FCC rule that radios and certain other types of devices are not supposed to intentionally cause interference, but in this case there shouldn't be any. Even if there was same channel interference, its not necessarily considered intentionally harmful - for example, its not illegal to use the same WiFi channel as your neighbor as long as you are within other specified technical limits such as transmit power or antenna gain. But doing so for the express purpose of interfering with them would be.

Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by aneutron on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:46PM (#22429579)
Thanks for the explanation !
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by nemosaltat on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:16PM (#22429408)
Most batteries have shelf lives under 10 years so the typical AA probably wouldn’t last for 13 years. That said, it would be pretty incredible.
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by skybrian on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:50PM (#22428313)
From the article it says it uses backscattering and the range is not very high. I guess it would work for some devices in areas that are already blanketed with WiFi signals, though?
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by amluto on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:56PM (#22428368)
Backscatter. It sounds like it needs two adjacent networks. One network transmits something, and the device backscatter-modulates its signal to be received by the other network.
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by lmilcin on Thursday February 27, 2020 @07:08AM (#22432552)
It is incredible, but you also need to remember to be able to transmit the device needs more, sensors, processing power, etc.
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by nordsieck on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @07:07PM (#22428935)
It looks like some people at UW did something similar a few years ago.

https://www.washington.edu/news/2016/02/23/uw-engineers-achi...

Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by manthideaal on Thursday February 27, 2020 @04:40AM (#22431944)
Just a reflection about this: Could a modification of this backscattering technique be used so that hundred of this devices use the same channel to transmit a set?, I am thinking about collecting the information of hundred of devices each sending a single bit in the same channel. This must be something like dividing a channel in subchannels but I am thinking about using the same frequency in the final output. Yes, it should be better if I read something about transmission of information.

I am thinking about an API in which you assing a number (index of device) to each device and you receive a set of bits ( for example danger/no danger) without having to make any modification to wifi signals or having to select, create or buy new channels and without danger of interfering with other signals because use a lot of bandwidth.

Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by manthideaal on Thursday February 27, 2020 @05:00AM (#22432010)
You (me) must read something about backscattering, a quick suggestion is: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/computer-science/backsc...
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by OrgNet on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:45PM (#22429897)
It's about time that someone harnesses the free power that everyone is broadcasting....
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by raxxorrax on Thursday February 27, 2020 @03:26AM (#22431620)
This is really nice. I could imagine smaller MCU integrating this and perhaps we could get rid of bluetooth. Don't use the latter very often, but the one advantage I know of is low power consumption.
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by willvarfar on Thursday February 27, 2020 @05:20AM (#22432102)
So this needs a powerful wifi transmitter nearby? Does a normal router continuously blast out enough power for these backscatter transmitters to harness, so no other transmitters are present?
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by lorepieri on Thursday February 27, 2020 @05:45AM (#22432207)
Battery is the biggest problem of IoT, this could be a tipping point.
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by rkagerer on Thursday February 27, 2020 @06:02AM (#22432268)
They make a big deal about the small size of the chip (less than a grain of rice). But what's the smallest size antenna this thing could be plugged into and remain effective?
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by ww520 on Thursday February 27, 2020 @05:17AM (#22432080)
Couple it with a low power camera and suddenly wireless security camera can last for years.
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by vsskanth on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @07:21PM (#22429039)
Does anyone know if you need special router firmware for this to work ?
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by bronson on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:53PM (#22429619)
You need special router hardware for this to work.
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by pjc50 on Thursday February 27, 2020 @03:02AM (#22431521)
There's no suggestion that you do and the abstract says "commodity" routers.
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by nickthemagicman on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:42PM (#22429885)
What's the lowest power WiFi device we have now?
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by totallyabstract on Thursday February 27, 2020 @08:43PM (#22439857)
It depends what your are doing. Some chips can get down to about 100uw to maintain associated and send small amounts of data. I'm not sure how they would compare at 2mbit or how the range would compare.
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by zaarn on Thursday February 27, 2020 @04:34AM (#22431904)
I'd say about 10mA (about 30-40mW at 3.3V) is the lower limit if you go a bit out of Wifi spec to save some power with current wifi modules in the common market for Microcontrollers and IOT applications.
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by nickthemagicman on Thursday February 27, 2020 @07:21AM (#22432603)
What devices have that?
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by zaarn on Thursday February 27, 2020 @07:45AM (#22432723)
I've measured that on an ESP32, specifically, using various power saving measures and substracting the chip's own consumption. Though Wifi is atleast 99% of power consumption on a sensor device with not much else going on.
Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by nickthemagicman on Friday February 28, 2020 @12:47PM (#22444621)
Interesting. Thanks for replies. I was hoping to find something I could add a small battery to and it could run a small vpn client as long as it had wifi connection. Ideally for months or years without maintenance if possible.

To save power, it could even wake up at certain times, say 5 min a day, then go back to sleep until that time window arrives again.

I can do all of the software I just don't know what hardware I should be looking at.

Re:New Chip Brings Ultra-Low Power Wi-Fi Connectivity to IoT... by agumonkey on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @11:59PM (#22430635)
Computing antennas are fun