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Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by xg15 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @01:18PM (#22425635)
> my intentional actions (successful business)

Your intentional action is to start a business. Whether or not it will be a successful business and actually "generate wealth" is to a large part dependant an chance.

Also, honestly, "It's not a zero-sum game" is beginning to sound like a religious mantra. Of course you can define "wealth" however your want and for the right definitions, you can certainly pull ever more of it out of nowhere. The set of natural numbers has no upper bound.

However, many extremely relevant kinds of wealth absolutely are zero-sum: There is only so much time in a day, only so much space to live in, only so many natural resources and only so much waste the planet will tolerate. If some class of people control disproportionately amounts of that, it will absolutely reduce the wealth of those who don't belong to that class.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by chrisco255 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @01:46PM (#22425880)
No, it's not dependent on chance. It's not some random spin on a roulette wheel. It depends on if you are offering a service that is valued by the marketplace.

There may be only so much time in a day, but the critical factor in wealth creation is how much you can get done in a day (productivity). You can also figure out clever ways to get more out of what you have (efficiency).

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by mullingitover on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @04:18PM (#22427432)
> No, it's not dependent on chance. It's not some random spin on a roulette wheel.

There are many random factors that can cause your business to succeed or fail.

You might have a terrible business idea that would normally fail, but a coincidental event could cause your business to become wildly successful.

You could be a terrible businessperson, but by luck of birth your family has connections that allow your business to succeed through pure nepotism.

You might have a brilliant idea that fails because of a natural disaster, or because someone doesn't like you and decides to bury you in lawsuits.

You might have a brilliant business idea but a competitor springs up and poaches your labor pool.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by WalterBright on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @06:41PM (#22428752)
You can also quit before you start and fail 100% of the time.
Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by mullingitover on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:39PM (#22429534)
It's not failing if you didn't waste time and you still have 100% of your capital in the bank. I'm also not saying nobody should take risks, or that you can't create your own luck, just pointing out that there's an element of chance in every success.
Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by WalterBright on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:26PM (#22429791)
A common thread I've noticed in people who say it's all luck is they never recognize when they are being lucky, and good fortune passes them by, unnoticed. Successful people feel lucky because they notice good luck and take advantage.

For example - odds are very good you're healthy. That's lucky! You live in the US - a lucky place to start a business! The internet makes it easy - lucky! You have an education - more great luck! If not, there's a free youtube video on just about anything you need to learn - what great luck!

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by cryptica on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @02:08PM (#22426135)
>> It depends on if you are offering a service that is valued by the marketplace

And who decides what is valued by the marketplace?

It's:

- Politicians through regulation.

- The Federal Reserve Bank by continuously creating new money out of thin air.

- Banks by deciding who can get the newly printed Fed money through loans and who can't (typically based on the value of assets which individuals already have; the result is that rich people get most of the new money through almost 0% interest loans).

- Corporate monopolies by locking out competitors (through lobbying government for beneficial regulations or making it prohibitively expensive for other companies to compete due to price gouging, international tax arbitrage, allowing losses in some sectors to selectively wipe out competitors in other sectors, incentivizing journalists to promote the corporate agenda, etc...)

As a small startup, you can be as efficient as you like. If some corporation doesn't want you to succeed, they can easily drain your coffers and crush you without drawing any attention to themselves. It's not about productivity or cleverness; that has very little value these days. Economic value these days lies in one's ability to control the social narrative and the money supply; it doesn't matter what the reality is.

If you have unlimited money, you can literally pay people to sit on their asses and pick their noses all day; you can even convince them that this is helping the company and therefore the whole economy... The company keeps getting more money year after year so somehow all this nose-picking must be paying off right?

The massive hose of Federal Reserve cash plugged straight into the back of the company is just a minor detail.

And the farmers who feed everyone are fools for accepting this electronic play money in exchange for their useful work.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by chrisco255 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @02:23PM (#22426309)
Regulation is a reaction to demand, it's not what creates demand. We can debate about the pros and cons of regulation, but that is quite a tangent. Certainly some businesses are prohibited by the existence of stringent regulations. Certainly regulations make it more expensive to start a business in certain industries. But they do not determine what the market wants.

The Fed also doesn't create demand for products and services. That demand is there, all the time. Right now there is latent demand in the marketplace to extend the human lifespan to 1000 years if possible. There's demand to travel at the speed of light or faster. Whether or not these things are even possible is completely independent of the demand for them.

It's also quite absurd that on the tail end of a decade of a start up boom in the tech industry that you would assert that all these factors make it impossible to succeed today. We are on Hacker News, a site powered by YCombinator, an incubator and investor that has helped make it possible for hundreds of companies to succeed that you claim is impossible. The combined valuation of the top YC companies was over $155 billion as of October, 2019. None of these companies existed 15 years ago.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by titzer on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @03:30PM (#22426990)
> Regulation is a reaction to demand, it's not what creates demand.

A regulation that mandates, e.g. catalytic converters, creates demand for them. Requiring car insurance, same. Examples abound.

> The Fed also doesn't create demand for products and services.

The Fed(eral reserve) sets monetary policy. It's supply side. By setting interest rates low, it increases demand for credit.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by cryptica on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @02:48PM (#22426566)
Y Combinator is completely out of reach for most people. There are limited slots and tens of thousands of applicants. It makes the whole selection process essentially pseudo-random.

Also, Y Combinator is not popular because it is successful, it is successful because it is popular.

It's no coincidence that Y Combinator operates the most popular technology news link aggregator in the world which all the big corporate tech executives read. This significantly affects the odds of success for startups which join Y Combinator. They choose who wins and it doesn't matter who they choose. If you are selected into YC, it's like winning the lottery.

They should do an experiment; filter out all the obvious scam applications then for all remaining applications (tens of thousands of them probably) run a random number generator to select startups based on keywords that YC likes. I bet the success rate for that batch wouldn't be very different from previous batches.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by jacquesm on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @03:21PM (#22426895)
YC was successful before it was popular.
Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by jmastrangelo on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @02:22PM (#22426296)
All of the mechanics available to the Fed and Politicians are large imprecise tools. Regular people still have unmet needs and successful businesses are still started all the time to meet those needs.
Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by WalterBright on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @06:42PM (#22428758)
> And who decides what is valued by the marketplace?

The people you'd be selling to.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by Uhhrrr on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @03:15PM (#22426849)
Have you ever bought something?
Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by WalterBright on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @06:40PM (#22428744)
> is to a large part dependant an chance

Not at all. I can start a business tomorrow, and if I do nothing or do stupid things with it, the odds of success are zero.

> only so many natural resources

We've literally only scratched the surface. Also, they aren't consumed. Things can always be refined and repurposed, as long as energy is available.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by pyrale on Thursday February 27, 2020 @03:32AM (#22431642)
Energy is not infinite, and the subset of that energy that can be used without killing the ecosystem we depend on is very limited.
Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by WalterBright on Thursday February 27, 2020 @03:44AM (#22431691)
Yes, there are a limited number of atoms in the universe, and we should be worried about that.
Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by drdeca on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @03:37PM (#22427049)
The phrase “zero sum game”, taken as referring to the game theory thing, “zero sum games”, isn’t about wealth, but about utility (though sometimes utility could be modeled as just being wealth).

To say that something isn’t zero sum in this sense is a rather weak statement. If any combination of actions by people result in at least one person being worse off and no one else being better off, or in at least one person being better off and no one else being worse off, than some other combination of choices, that is sufficient to conclude that it isn’t zero sum. (This isn’t a necessary condition, only a sufficient one. But a Pareto difference (terminology?) implies a difference in the sum of utilities (assuming that there is a sensible way to add the utilities) without assuming a particular way to add utilities between persons, so I think it is easier to justify conceptually.)

That many things involving multiple people are not zero sum, in this sense, is obvious. (Punching a stranger in the face for no reason decreases the utility of the stranger without increasing one’s own. Well, for most people anyway?) It doesn’t imply that there are no limits to how good outcomes can be.

That a given thing is not zero sum is often something that would be sufficiently trivial as to not be worth saying, except that people talk about the thing as if it is zero sum.

If things were constrained to be on the Pareto frontier, then, while possibly still not zero sum, there would I think be less reason to point out that things aren’t zero sum even if they weren’t.

Pointing out that things aren’t zero sum is often, I think, effectively a call to take into account whether options would move closer to or further from the Pareto frontier, and not just pretend that things are always on the Pareto frontier and try to move along the Pareto frontier.

Now, if, within a certain context, the maximum distance it is possible to be from the Pareto frontier is negligible, then in those cases exclaiming “care more about the distance to the Pareto frontier!” wouldn’t seem to make much sense, and perhaps even sometimes justice requires putting more emphasis on where on the frontier we are closest to than how close we are to it, even if it means non-negligible difference in closeness to the frontier.

But, generally speaking, Pareto improvements are good and important, and forbidding people from taking actions that result in global Pareto improvements (I don’t just mean “if you only consider these people, then among these people it is a Pareto improvement”, but rather things that are Pareto improvements when considering everyone’s interests) is usually bad.