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Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by Barrin92 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:27PM (#22425112)
as the article points out the game was in particular desgigned to show the economic effects of private land rent, hence the original title 'the landlord's game', and that is in fact a zero sum game as they aren't making any more of it.

And in particular on tech websites like these people vastly overstate how non 'zero-sum' economic activity actually is mostly because tech has been in a bubble of highly anomalous growth. (A lot of it ironically arguably not real productivity growth but rent collection through platforms and market power).

In many ways the tech startups of today look more like digital landlords than innovators whose disruption is primarily taking over the market from a host of competitors rather than improving process efficiency. If we were living in Fordist times and the assembly line and other innovations delivered 6-7% growth annually, then we could rave on about non-zero sum economies. Total factor productivity growth these days is relatively non-existent.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by BurningFrog on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:51PM (#22425370)
And yet we are 30x richer per person in a 10x bigger population since the Industrial Revolution started.

That is 300x more than a zero sum model would predict.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by loaiw1 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @01:01PM (#22425482)
"We"? What is being counted here, the average income and wealth?

Of course people are better off with food and iPhones, but in many major European cities people with middle class incomes share apartments that were literally single family worker apartments around 1900.

In terms of living space, the quality of life for the middle class is worse than 100 years ago.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by solotronics on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @01:11PM (#22425578)
There are exponentially more people today. In 1850 there were 23 million people in America, today there are 330 million. There was a 15x increase in population, with more than that in the city centers.

Texas had a population of 212k in 1850 and 29 million today. How can you compare the size of a house or land ownership then to today?

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by justizin on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @01:25PM (#22425701)
> Texas had a population of 212k in 1850 and 29 million today. How can you compare the size of a house or land ownership then to today?

You are pinning your argument on houses in _TEXAS_ having gotten smaller? lol bc if anything they have gotten larger.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by solotronics on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @02:45PM (#22426535)
At that time land was given away via grants in Texas to anyone who would live there by the hundreds of acres. Comparing that situation to land (housing) prices in a major city today is nonsensical.
Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by LoSboccacc on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @01:10PM (#22425571)
> In terms of living space, the quality of life for the middle class is worse than 100 years ago.

most urbanites of today don't own a chicken, let alone a cow, in 800's standard they're worse off than serfs.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by GreenJelloShot on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @04:48PM (#22427721)
In 1900, the average life expectancy for an American man was 48.3

Today, the average life expectancy for Americans is 78.7

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by dlp211 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @07:12PM (#22428969)
That is mostly, but not completely, due to infant mortality rates.
Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by notJim on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @04:39PM (#22427638)
Indeed, the marxist argument is that the productivity gains of the industrial revolution would allow unprecedented human freedom, if not for their capture by the small class of people who own the means of production. The labor movement has played an enormous role in ensuring the working class gets a fairer share, via the 40-hour work week, collective bargaining, etc.

We may see another example of this if Andrew Yang and other folks bullish on automation are correct. The few people who own the AI systems that replace truck drivers will get fabulously wealthy, while the large mass of workers will get nothing.

In the past ~50 years in the US, labor has been on the back foot, and productivity gains have gone almost exclusively to the wealthy, rather than the working class.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by partiallypro on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:09PM (#22427929)
"In the past ~50 years in the US, labor has been on the back foot, and productivity gains have gone almost exclusively to the wealthy, rather than the working class. "

How so? The poorest working people in the US today are much much much better off than they were 50 years ago. It's not even close. A lot of people have recency bias, technology gains etc have given much more freedom to individuals, made work easier and less labor intensive, that is largely due to private industry. Globally, poverty has plunged.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by monocasa on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:26PM (#22428091)
What stats are you looking at?

Real wages have been stagnant for the vast majority of workers in the US.

And the "pulled people out of poverty" thing is such a BS stat. Converting subsistence farmers into sweat shop workers so that they they have $1.50/day instead of $0/day isn't a real metric of pulling people out of poverty. It's more a metric of how tied into the global system they are.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by aeternum on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:56PM (#22428366)
According to this real wages have been rising for the last 30 years: https://www.factcheck.org/2019/06/are-wages-rising-or-flat/
Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by monocasa on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @06:01PM (#22428414)
Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by aeternum on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:26PM (#22429462)
Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by refurb on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @06:05PM (#22428444)
Your ignoring total compensation as wages are only one part of it.

Total compensation at all income levels has vastly outstripped inflation over the past 50 years.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by monocasa on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @06:48PM (#22428806)
[citation needed]

Median is $60k household. People making $30k each aren't having side perks thrown at them.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by refurb on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @07:32PM (#22429115)
Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by monocasa on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @07:39PM (#22429176)
That's average, not median.
Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by partiallypro on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:38PM (#22430199)
$1.50/day has much more purchasing power in poorer countries. Any time someone makes such a statement, I can immediately tell they are ignorant on basic economics. The US also used to have low wages for entry level workers, as did every (no developed) country. That's how progress is made. You can't expect a poor farmer with minimal skills to start making $25 an hour. And what stats am I looking at? What stats are YOU looking at? Even if you believe the notion that real wages are flat (not true,) living standards have still risen drastically thanks to technology. Do you think technology gains just come out of thin air? No, they are driven by competition and the need to profit.
Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by chrisco255 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @04:52PM (#22427761)
I'm not holding my breath on self-driving semi trucks anytime soon. They will be the last type of vehicle to be automated. It takes a lot of skill to drive an 18 wheeler from warehouse to distribution center to warehouse. They are extremely dangerous machines if not handled properly and can easily kill dozens of people if a miscalculation occurs.

In the meantime, you could make the same argument about farming equipment in the 19th and 20th centuries. Yeah 90% of the population used to be farmers, and yeah the equipment automated away most of that labor, but did the former farmers and laborers lose out or did they gain, by access to the same technology... either via personal automobiles or via cheaper, more reliable supply chains of abundant food.

Likewise, if and when transportation is automated, people will gain from their time saved in traffic. They will gain from cheaper costs of transportation overall which will reduce price of goods at retail. They will gain from the availability of 24/7 cheap, reliable, on-demand transportation.

And no, real wages are at all time highs in the United States, with the median household income hitting $63K in 2018.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by monocasa on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:30PM (#22428134)
They're testing self driving trucks on I-70 outside of Denver specifically to test them in the worst conditions. They're not coming, they're already here.

The issue though, isn't that a specific job is going away, but instead the whole class of "human as control theory implementation" is going away. That's way more disruptive. Like, people instead becoming control software for guillotines level disruptive.

> And no, real wages are at all time highs in the United States, with the median household income hitting $63K in 2018.

"Real wages" mean inflation and CPI adjusted so you can actually compare them in a meaningful way. They have indeed been stagnant for median wage earners since the seventies.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by chrisco255 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @06:08PM (#22428482)
Out of curiosity, do you have a link to the test trials in Denver? They're not already here. Even if they're 95% of the way, if that last 5% is catastrophic failure that ends in death and destruction, it's not even close to ready for production.

I'm well aware of what real wages means in terms of inflation.

"From January 2019 to January 2020, real average hourly earnings increased 0.7 percent"

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/realer.nr0.htm

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by monocasa on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @06:49PM (#22428813)
> Out of curiosity, do you have a link to the test trials in Denver? They're not already here. Even if they're 95% of the way, if that last 5% is catastrophic failure that ends in death and destruction, it's not even close to ready for production.

I literally see Embark trucks going down the I-70 mountain in the snow. They are already here.

Here says they are already making deliveries (albeit test ones): https://www.wired.com/story/embark-self-driving-truck-delive...

> I'm well aware of what real wages means in terms of inflation.

> "From January 2019 to January 2020, real average hourly earnings increased 0.7 percent"

> https://www.bls.gov/news.release/realer.nr0.htm

And meanwhile when you don't cherry pick a single year (and really 0.7% increase isn't something to be writing home about in the first place), they've been stagnant for decades.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us...

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by xixixao on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:48PM (#22425337)
I think that’s a super narrow view of tech development. Many menial jobs are being replaced by tech, and if that’s not increasing productivity than I don’t know what Ford’s assembly lines did...
Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by Barrin92 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @02:48PM (#22426572)
I don't think it's true that many jobs are being replaced by tech. Restaurant workers, store clerks, nurses, assistances, even warehouse workers and so on are stable. Go through a list of the jobs in the US that employ most workers and none in the top 30 have been created in the last 20 years.

Many economists have pointed this out. If the 'rapid innovation' that a lot of tech entrepreneurs talk about was happening (and they have an incentive to oversell it), we would see high unemployment (as people are being replaced) together with high productivity and high GDP growth. We see no such thing. The Andrew Yang robot horror scenario is nowhere in the data.

By historical measures, the technological progress of the 1940s to late 1970s vastly outpaces today.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by WalterBright on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:53PM (#22428336)
> that is in fact a zero sum game

Not at all. Putting a 10 story building on a lot is multiplying the area by 10.

[dead]
Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by WalterBright on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @06:50PM (#22428825)
> And the proceeds still go to the landowner.

You can buy property and multiply its value by 10 by putting a 10 story building on it, and even sell floors on it. It happens all the time. It is simply not a fixed supply.

> Typical Caltech brat

LOL. My opinions on markets were quite atypical for Caltech students in the 1970s. They're likely even less typical today.

Setting aside opinions, I've been in business and associated with business entrepreneurs ever since Caltech. Consistently, those with positive outlooks and willingness to take action have done very well. Those with negative views and a victim mentality have all done poorly.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by viklove on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:03PM (#22430015)
> You can buy property

Most people can't afford to buy property. That's sort of the crux of this discussion. Half of Americans live paycheck to paycheck and about the same amount have less than $10k in the bank.

> I've been in business and associated with business entrepreneurs ever since Caltech. Consistently, those with positive outlooks and willingness to take action have done very well.

Yes, people who have money can easily acquire more money. Most people don't start out with money though, so it's rather selfish to judge the world solely from this perspective.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by WalterBright on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:22PM (#22430123)
> That's sort of the crux of this discussion.

This discussion is about property being zero-sum. It isn't zero sum.

> Most people don't start out with money though

There are endless businesses one can start with no money.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by hirundo on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @01:03PM (#22425497)
I just drove from Seattle to Albuquerque, through vast tracts of empty land. Land is politically, not physically scarce. That's even true right around major metropoli, let alone the hinterlands. And even that doesn't count unused potential square footage along the vertical axis. The truly constraining axis isn't x, y or z, but NIMBY.
Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by StillBored on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @02:35PM (#22426421)
Empty land because its rainfall is insufficient to grow traditional crops. Worse, the water table in much of it is quite deep and the groundwater opportunities are scarce (and becoming more so). Compare with the US east coast where its pretty much impossible to throw a rock these days an not hit someone's house. Even in the rural areas people are frequently on plots of land that wouldn't support them without intensive industrialized farming.

Check out the "field lab" video's for a now ten year video blog posting of the hardships of attempting to live off the land in the arid SW us. Somewhere along the way he started saying "i'm just not someone who can grow crops". But in reality, its more a case of he can't grow crops because they don't survive 100F summers, or seasons without a lot of rainfal. If the weeds are having a hard time growing, your potato's/whatever are probably not going to be doing well.

edit: just to point out the redundancy, if you go read the newspapers in any of the major cities in the SW what you will frequently read about is water woes. Overwhelmingly those cities ability to supply water at the projected population growth rates are questionable.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by smegger001 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @06:55PM (#22428858)
Yeah CGP Grey had a god video about federal land ownership the majorty of land in western states is federal land.

https://youtu.be/LruaD7XhQ50

Its kind of ridiculous. how little control states have over the land within their own boarders.

Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by xvedejas on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:49PM (#22425344)
I understand that land is finite, but you'll need to explain further how tech is at all similar, or else I'm not sure it's a good metaphor. Monopolistic platforms aren't great, and I'm also no fan of competitive inefficiency, but how is any of this like land? It sounds like you're implying it becomes impossible at some point to make more tech?
Re:Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capital... by bobobooey on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:56PM (#22425427)
shut it down boys, everything's already been made.