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Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by Ghjklov on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:27AM (#22423780)
This sounds a bit weird to me. Why do cigarette companies take blame for people who smoke and cause fires while falling asleep during it? Do we blame knife manufacturers when a cook cuts himself?
Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by pessimizer on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:53AM (#22424060)
The cigarette companies use paper that doesn't stop burning when a drag hasn't been taken in a while, because it probably allows them to sell 5% more cigarettes (due to inattentive smokers.)

Note that I'm not saying here that they simply fail to use some technology or chemical that would cause a cigarette to burn out. They are doing the opposite; a hand-rolled cigarette burns out on its own.

Cigarette fires are usually caused when a smoker falls asleep while holding a cigarette.

Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by carapace on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:54PM (#22425406)
Little rings of gunpowder in the paper to make it act like a fuse, that's nothing.

At one point tobacco companies developed non-addictive cigarettes and kept it a secret.

Source: A long time back a friend of mine's brother was part of a faux-jury assembled by tobacco company lawyers to do like a focus group to research how real juries in some real trial might think/feel. They revealed all kinds of stuff to these folks. They made them sign NDAs, of course, but he told us everything anyway. That was one of the things I remember: they made non-addictive cigs and kept it a secret.

Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by kiterunner2346 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @02:08PM (#22426128)
carapace says>"Little rings of gunpowder in the paper to make it act like a fuse..."

There is no gunpowder in cigarettes:

https://www.verywellmind.com/big-tobaccos-list-of-599-cigare...

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=27857

A non-addictive cigarette would have to have no nicotine b/c nicotine is addictive:

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/toba...

"Source: A long time back a friend of mine's brother was part of a faux-jury assembled by tobacco company lawyers to do like a focus group to research how real juries in some real trial might think/feel."

Ycombinator post<--carapace<--friend<--brother<--faux-jury<--lawyers<--tobacco company

Even facts get changed when they're nested >5 levels deep in human networks.

Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by guitarbill on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @04:20PM (#22427461)
especially if it had no nicotine, it could help people to stop smoking who miss the fidgeting or social aspect. e-cigarettes/vaping is really good for this, because you can taper down to 0mg liquid, keep vaping until you've kicked the nicotine, and then maybe months later try to stop all together
Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by wafflesraccoon on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @01:20PM (#22425660)
It's really not that surprising if you think about it. They have caffeine free coffee and alcohol free beer.

I suspect it would not do well as a product, all the downsides of smoking without the rewarding nicotine buzz. It would be interesting to learn more.

Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by t-writescode on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @01:07PM (#22425537)
But we don’t sue Yankee Candle or the company that makes tea candles whenever someone falls asleep with those fires going. I don’t accept the jump in logic people used that caused the tobacco companies to need to fight these cases.

A person is holding something flammable without the respect it deserves. The human desperation to place blame needs to be restrained better.

Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by stuaxo on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @01:14PM (#22425608)
People don't generally put candles on their furniture, cigarettes are often smoked on chairs.
Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by rgovostes on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:37AM (#22423882)
According to the documentary "Merchants of Doubt," there were modifications that could be made to cigarette design to reduce the likelihood of causing a fire, but the companies resisted changing their products.
Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by klyrs on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:57AM (#22424096)
Do you remember what modifications were on the table? Kinda seems like a cigarette is a punk (in the pyrotechnic sense)... I'm having trouble seeing anything that would be effective without being annoying enough for people to work around.
Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by namdnay on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @11:26AM (#22424418)
By changing the formula for the paper, you can have a cigarette that will go out if you don't drag on it for 30-60s, just like a hand-rolled. But obviously that's bad for business..
Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by furgooswft13 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:41PM (#22425253)
> have a cigarette that will go out if you don't drag on it for 30-60s

Have you smoked a cigarette recently (as in at least the past 10 years)?. This is absolutely what they do. I'm not sure what the exact flame out time is for any particular brand, but it's a real drag (ahem) for people who like to smoke slowly, as the first re-lit hit feels very harsh.

According to Wikipedia[1] fire-safe cigarettes are required in all 50 states as of 2011. It's been awhile since I've smoked but I remember me and my friends bitching about the fire safe paper many years before that. We also theorized that it was making the cig more harsh in general. Of course we never had any evidence of this.

I might be wrong about this, but it seems to me that simple paper + tobacco hand rolled cigs natural behavior would be to not flame out, or do so much more slowly. What's stopping it from continuing to burn?

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_safe_cigarette#United_Sta...

Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by namdnay on Thursday February 27, 2020 @03:43AM (#22431687)
Indeed I haven't smoked for a long long time. It seems that they were implemented end of 2011 in the EU

For hand rolled I'm not sure, I just remember that they would go out much easier, whatever is rolled inside of them

Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by kick on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @02:15PM (#22426208)
The US is not the UK.
Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by dfox on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @02:57PM (#22426675)
But it still is/was/whatever in EU, where the self extinguishing cigarettes are also mandatory.
Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by dx034 on Thursday February 27, 2020 @01:27AM (#22431092)
I believe that's mandated now in the EU. Cigarettes will stop burning if left alone for a few minutes. Very annoying for inattentive smokers. But I'm not sure how much of an effect that had on fires.
Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by Falloodude on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @11:45AM (#22424652)
This is a false equivalency. Cooks are not chemically addicted to food in the same way smokers are chemically addicted to cigarettes. Practically speaking, cooks usually only use knives in rooms/places with food. Smokers could be smoking anywhere.

When my apartment building nearly caught fire because someone two buildings over fell asleep with a cigarette in hand, killed themselves, and burned down two other apartments, of course people wondered why cigarettes don't burn out on their own when you stop taking drags.

Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by refurb on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @11:52AM (#22424751)
Should candle manufacturers be held responsible when someone burns their place down because they left a candle burning or put it near flammable material or knocked it over?
Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by logicalmind on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:21PM (#22425036)
It's all about negligence and what you can prove in a court of law (or settle for in arbitration these days). A person taking an open flame and leaving it unattended or not monitoring it, is negligent in the eyes of most people (aka jurors). There is a reasonable expectation that an open flame is going to cause a fire if expose to combustable material.

But what about a person dropping a lit cigarette on a couch (either sleeping or not). A cigarette isn't an open flame so the above doesn't apply. Is there a reasonable expectation that a lit cigarette would cause a couch to catch on fire? If there is, and a jury agreed, then the person who dropped it would be negligent.

But I would expect said person's lawyer to show that a standard cigarette dropped on a couch would not and could not cause a fire. But cigarettes manufactured by company X are treated with chemical Y in order to make them non-standard. And while the client may be partially negligent (for dropping the cigarette or falling asleep), the manufacture is also partially negligent for (knowingly) adding fire sustaining chemicals to an otherwise standard cigarette. If the cigarette manufacturer could prove that a standard cigarette would catch a couch on fire, and the knowledge of this was obvious to a standard person, then the person would be 100% negligent.

Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by nkrisc on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:01PM (#22424849)
Candles pose risk, but otherwise serve a useful purpose.
Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by jstarfish on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:18PM (#22425011)
So do cigarettes, nominally-- they are one of the only legal stimulants on the market.
Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by slowmovintarget on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:55PM (#22425412)
Fire is no longer necessary for consumption of the drug, though. Not that I think it wise to consume nicotine...
Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by AstralStorm on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @01:07PM (#22425534)
Never was. Nicotine gum and oils were available for a long long time, same with chewable and insufflable tobacco.
Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by bluGill on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:25PM (#22425092)
It isn't that they took the blame so much as they wanted to take one blame off their customer and thus remove one incentive that those customers would have to give up their products. Also it is their customers most likely to die in such a fire.

That is what I would assume anyway, I'm not in the industry.

Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by dabeeeenster on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:38AM (#22423900)
The same reason cyclists are at fault for not wearing high-vis clothing or helmets.
Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by lostlogin on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:44PM (#22425285)
When people do stupid things it is good if the don’t die. Car safety is an area that come to mind, and that slowly pushes forward with mechanisms for saving people.
Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by logfromblammo on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:44AM (#22423977)
A careless cook is unlikely to injure others, whereas a careless smoker could burn down the entire apartment complex.

Based on the American principle of jurisprudence commonly known as "sue the one with the most money", the families of those burnt-up people would probably go after the cigarette manufacturer.

The smoker, after all, would probably not routinely have burning embers smoldering in their home without the cigarette, would not be careless with fire without the casual familiarity with the burning cigarette, and would not be smoking at all without the addictive herbs and chemicals added to the cigarette by the manufacturer.

Imagine if a firearms manufacturer used television and movies to promote the idea that frequently firing live rounds in your own home was a fun and relaxing activity that is completely normal and acceptable (like Elvis shooting his television--free endorsement!). And occasionally someone might die from overpenetration. Gunmakers would then probably promote something like aramid or kevlar fabric wallboard sheathing, too, for more bullet-resistant walls. Arms companies have not, in fact, done anything quite that careless, yet they still get sued occasionally when gun owners are negligent. Not because they deserve the blame; because they have the most money.

If that knife manufacturer had deep pockets, you can bet your ass that eventually some clumsy cook would sue them.

Re:Toxic sofas are a secret scandal by tapland on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @11:54AM (#22424768)
I mean, most companies manufacturing kitchen knives seem to be valued a lot higher than Glock or Remington for example, who have both been sued.