News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by erentz on Sunday February 23, 2020 @03:22PM (#22399286)
I see the Amazon fake products problem as related to the social network fake news problem. In both cases you have a company that wants to both have it's platform cake and eat it's publisher cake at the same time. (Sorry for the bad spin on that phrase there.)

One important part of our solution here has to be that we force these companies to take a position one way or the other. So in Amazon's case it would need to decide - am I a platform for companies to set up there own online shop and provide fulfillment services to? Or am I myself the online shop?

In the later case they become responsible for product, like any business. In the former, they aren't. But in the former they now need to act as just a platform and not provide all the branding that makes it look like you're buying from Amazon. So they'd be more akin to Shopify or something I suppose. Every fly by night shop that wants to set up needs to set up its own branding and that way brand reliability and recognition still works and items are no longer commingled.

Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by the_snooze on Sunday February 23, 2020 @03:42PM (#22399388)
>I see the Amazon fake products problem as related to the social network fake news problem. In both cases you have a company that wants to both have it's platform cake and eat it's publisher cake at the same time. (Sorry for the bad spin on that phrase there.)

These companies innovate by showing off a layer of whiz-bang techy goodness so people don't notice that they've simply externalized all the responsibility and internalized all the profits.

Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by amylene on Sunday February 23, 2020 @04:54PM (#22399797)
Wait, do you really believe that amazons retail business has had little or no significant innovation besides whiz bang tech goodness? I’m guessing you were exaggerating to make a more strong sounding statement, but if you meant it, then I strongly disagree.
Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by pas on Sunday February 23, 2020 @05:30PM (#22400002)
What exactly are they adding in value compared to any regular webshop? It's just as incomprehensibly bad as the standard run of the mill default PrestaShop.

At least Shopify is a real platform you can build stuff on.

Amazon is just this giant bullying machine. The Dalek of retail.

Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by robteix on Sunday February 23, 2020 @05:55PM (#22400131)
Super fast and cheap shipping is a big deal. Easy returns.

I have several issues with Amazon the company, but any time I buy something only from any other vendor I'm reminded of what makes Amazon different.

Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by pas on Monday February 24, 2020 @04:51AM (#22402812)
Could you elaborate a bit on what other vendors screw up?

Here, in Hungary, ordering from Amazon is problematic, because it's such a beast. No human in the loop, and they pass on your package to some delivery vendor anyway, which usually doesn't provide much tracking. So we get no* benefit of the machine at all.

* - sure, we get an interface that's at least consistent and usually available in English

Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by SECProto on Sunday February 23, 2020 @07:13PM (#22400529)
> Super fast and cheap shipping is a big deal.

Fast OR cheap shipping. At least in my locality. In the place I most frequently order, free shipping is scheduled for "5-7 business days" to get to me, and frequently gets misdirected and takes an extra day or two (pushing it past another weekend).

When I've ordered to one of Canada's large urban centers it is much faster. But going to an actual store to get something for the same price is also an option, and faster still. And doesn't tend to have difficult to spot counterfeits.

Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by amylene on Sunday February 23, 2020 @10:24PM (#22401385)
Huge selection, great customer service, saved credentials, 5% back on purchases, most stuff is one day shipping for me. I also know they fix problems pretty rapidly. I get a ton of entertainment from prime video.

Those are all things difficult to get consistently from a random web store.

Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by pas on Monday February 24, 2020 @04:58AM (#22402835)
> Huge selection

Agreed. The problem is that generally the descriptions are so useless it's hard to know what's actually what. (For example recently I ordered a case for a Kobo Forma e-reader, and it was impossible to know how it would actually fold, because there were a few pictures, no video, no schematics, nothing. And the description was similarly unhelpful. It worked out okay though.)

> great customer service

I found it impossible to even get in touch with them :o (I wanted to ask where my package is, but they just kept naming the shipping vendor - "Deutsche Post", no tracking ID, no link, no actual contact to the relevant department.)

> saved credentials

Every webshop so far does it, and usually smaller ones provide ability to use PayPal.

> 5% back on purchases

How does that work? It's either priced into the price of everything or others pay for it, no?

Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by jka on Sunday February 23, 2020 @04:08PM (#22399535)
It also wouldn't be surprising to learn that they identify customers (buyers) who have louder voices and more social influence, and shield those people from fakes -- or provide rewards to mollify them when they do report problems.
Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by gowld on Sunday February 23, 2020 @08:11PM (#22400785)
That’s intractable. They can’t selectively shield everyone the influencer retweets from fakes.

They didn’t even shield a wirecutter , one of their largest affiliate referrers.

Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by TeMPOraL on Sunday February 23, 2020 @04:42PM (#22399738)
> I see the Amazon fake products problem as related to the social network fake news problem.

Brought it up elsewhere[0], but I think you're right in more than one way. Beyond publisher vs. platform issue, fake news are the digital equivalent to counterfeiting; they're to news - and in general, to information media[1] - what Amazon counterfeits are to physical products.

--

[0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22399726

[1] - Which include all digital media and most physical books.

Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by ajmurmann on Sunday February 23, 2020 @09:21PM (#22401120)
Just stopping the insane co-mingling of products from different sellers would go such a long way. The co-mingling is in essence destroying accountability and evidence!
Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by dbcurtis on Monday February 24, 2020 @11:17AM (#22405365)
Amazon is simply the worlds largest fence for counterfeit goods, and should be treated as such. If your local pawn shop did what Amazon does, the owners would take a ride in a black-and-white cab.
Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by empath75 on Sunday February 23, 2020 @03:30PM (#22399329)
I think you solve it by making amazon directly liable for fraud on their platform. They’d clean up the problem pretty quickly after losing a few billion dollars in lawsuits.
Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by quickthrowman on Sunday February 23, 2020 @03:40PM (#22399375)
How do you convince Congress to pass that legislation when there’s lots of money on the other side lobbying for the status quo?
Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by birdyrooster on Sunday February 23, 2020 @04:43PM (#22399740)
By having a President that holds rallies on getting these issues passed and sets a agenda for the people to vote for congresspeople who support consumer protection laws like these. This is where the office of the Presidency really has impact, it can direct the attention of millions of people to exert great pressure on its target.
Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by gdulli on Sunday February 23, 2020 @05:13PM (#22399910)
Hypothetically, what if the executive branch also ever happened to be nonfunctional?
Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by smileysteve on Sunday February 23, 2020 @08:19PM (#22400827)
There is already legislation that should give the FTC teeth to fine or shutdown Amazon based on counterfeit goods, especially if the branding is illegitimate.
Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by nostromo on Sunday February 23, 2020 @03:47PM (#22399407)
There's a lot of anti-tech energy on the left lately. And Bezos painted a target on his back by getting into Twitter feuds with Trump. He's also now synonymous with the Washington Post which has never met a Republican they liked.

This all adds up to a company nobody seems to like in DC. If there's any company I could see getting a Washington smackdown soon, it's Amazon.

Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by xxpor on Sunday February 23, 2020 @05:50PM (#22400105)
>He's also now synonymous with the Washington Post which has never met a Republican they liked.

Have you ever actually read the WaPo editorial page?

Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by nostromo on Monday February 24, 2020 @02:13AM (#22402230)
I’m talking about their reporting, not their editorials — which, no, I don’t regularly read. Although it’s worth noting they’ve not once endorsed a Republican for president, ever.

They serve DC, so I’m not surprised or upset they have a bias — but we shouldn’t pretend it doesn’t exist either.

Obviously owning a liberal newspaper doesn’t win Bezos any points on the right, which became obvious with Trump supposedly pressuring the Pentagon not to use AWS.

Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by disappearance on Sunday February 23, 2020 @04:06PM (#22399521)
There is no political solution until politics is clean. Left, right, whatever. It’s all mood until then.
Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by gpm on Sunday February 23, 2020 @07:29PM (#22400600)
I think they should be liable, but I think even just enforcing the existing laws without making them liable would put a stop to it.

Just have the police start tracking down what warehouses counterfeit items came from, and getting search warrants to search them.

Apart from the fact that this would directly reduce the number of counterfeit's... repeatedly shutting down warehouses for searches would kill Amazon's bottom line. Cleaning up after the police would kill Amazon's bottom line. Etc.

It's not exactly justice, but it is damn effective. You can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride and all that.

Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by pmart123 on Sunday February 23, 2020 @05:30PM (#22400001)
I agree from in some capacity in the growth or greed to increase DAU and engagement for social networks is similar to Amazon’s desire to grow SKUs and purchase volume. Amazon mixing SKUs maybe relates to when press piggy backs off of the same initial headline as it creates distrust and makes people question the quality of the product.

There’s a big difference though. Social media allows many individual voices, and much like the printing press, allows previously unheard voices to be heard and to have reach. Therefore, the world’s expert can call out a journalist for being wrong immediately, making it seem like “fake news” is more common than it was previously.

Amazon is actually causing distrust around product quality when there wasn’t any before. Consumers may have trusted Colgate’s toothpaste, but if it isn’t actually Colgate’s toothpaste, yet it poisons someone, it becomes Colgate’s problem too. This would be like Facebook or Twitter allowing any account to adopt a WSJ or NyTimes verified badge, one of those accounts publishes fake news, and then the paper itself has a problem too.

Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by JKCalhoun on Sunday February 23, 2020 @05:37PM (#22400038)
Yeah, been going to AliExpress more and more. If Amazon is going to a platform for other companies, I'll go with the cheapest one....
Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by tracer4201 on Sunday February 23, 2020 @03:35PM (#22399354)
Disclaimer: I don’t own amazon directly but do own funds where Amazon is a significant chunk.

I don’t agree with this kind of regulation. It’s simply not the governments role to decide. You as a seller are not forced to sell on Amazon. I say that as the spouse of a seller who owns a store on EBay that’s continued to be successful. We had a bad experience selling on Amazon and are better off without them. Of course that’s just our experience but I’m not convinced Amazon is a monopoly here.

I do think Amazon needs to be held liable for fake products and whatever damage they cause its customers. Amazon simply selling goods with no liability of fraudulent items is a disgrace, and I don’t think they will change until we ram some regulation down their throat.

Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by 0xffff2 on Sunday February 23, 2020 @03:44PM (#22399399)
Serious question: What is the point of a “disclaimer” that applies to nearly everyone with a retirement account?
Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by fortran77 on Sunday February 23, 2020 @04:48PM (#22399771)
He's trying to sound sophisticated.
Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by amylene on Sunday February 23, 2020 @04:56PM (#22399805)
Minus the projection, I think all we can say is they were warning us to take their opinion with a grain of salt because they have an ostensible conflict of interest.
Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by CaptainZapp on Monday February 24, 2020 @12:55AM (#22401992)
> You as a seller are not forced to sell on Amazon.

Sorry, but this argument is just silly.

Here's some food for thought: Birkenstock stopped selling on Amazon[1] due to a delluge of fakes. Now go to Amazon.com and search for Birkenstock. You get a shit ton of results.

So if Birkenstock is not selling them, since they don't sell on Amazon, then who sells them and do those sellers have a right to sell a 3rd party product despite the brand not wishing to sell on the platform at all?

If you can regulate that a pimply faced teenager in Tenessee is ruined for life for downloading 10 songs, then it should surely be possible to regulate a behemoth like Amazon not to allow the sale of crap from dodgy suppliers on its platform.

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/20/birkenstock-quits-amazon-in-...

Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by leetcrew on Sunday February 23, 2020 @04:22PM (#22399619)
> I do think Amazon needs to be held liable for fake products and whatever damage they cause its customers.

what would this look like? they already have a pretty generous return policy. they pay the return shipping and return the funds as soon as the package ships. I'm not thrilled with the status quo of playing fraud roulette every time I order something, but the worst thing that's ever happened to me is having to wait a couple extra days for the genuine item.

Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by heavyset_go on Sunday February 23, 2020 @04:38PM (#22399717)
> they already have a pretty generous return policy.

Yet there is no option to indicate that "This product is a counterfeit" when filing a return, despite it being a documented problem. The purchaser must choose a different, and inaccurate, reason for their return when filing for one.

One way to read into this is that Amazon doesn't want to keep records of counterfeit items sold on their marketplace because of the liability such records might incur.

Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by amylene on Sunday February 23, 2020 @04:57PM (#22399810)
Another way to read it is that amazon doesn’t believe the consumer is a reliable counterfeit detector, versus “crappy product”, etc.
Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by heavyset_go on Sunday February 23, 2020 @05:08PM (#22399876)
This can be solved with an "I believe the item I received is a counterfeit" option alongside the "Item is defective or doesn't work" option already present during the return process.
Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by caro_douglos on Sunday February 23, 2020 @08:35PM (#22400915)
My personal favorite was the manufacturer who purchased an item from us (a third party merchant) who claimed it was counterfeit. This product was originally purchased from the manufacturer and had its original sales receipt. Amazon’s project zero uses a hammer to fix this problem by removing all sellers (even ones that have a right to sell the item). Sometimes in rare cases legal action is taken and they do get the real counterfeiter but from what I saw the real problem (for the accuser) is solved because now only amazon or only the manufacturer can sell against that listing. Hoping this will one day change but I’m certainly not going to hold my breath.
Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by erik_seaberg on Sunday February 23, 2020 @08:50PM (#22400979)
Does Amazon know you are not a manufacturer? How do the customers benefit from the risk of involving orgs like yours?
Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by heavenlyblue on Sunday February 23, 2020 @11:08PM (#22401572)
And the seller is? Amazon never even receives the product in this scenario - how do they then try to deal with the issue?
Re:Which of these Amazon Prime purchases are real? by sharpneli on Sunday February 23, 2020 @04:39PM (#22399722)
Commercial copyright infringement.

I recall RIAA back in start of 2000’s said it should be around $100k-$300k per instance.