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Re:Greater male than female variability in regional brain st... by pubby on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @01:20PM (#22368350)
Related theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis

I first heard of this when researching chess. Men rank ~200 ELO points higher than women at chess, which is a fairly significant amount. Men also seem to do better at several other non-physical competitions like Go, video games, and Jeopardy. Plus, the history of math and science is dominated by men at the top.

It seems like men are not smarter on average, but they do peak higher (and valley lower).

Re:Greater male than female variability in regional brain st... by commandlinefan on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @03:42PM (#22369839)
> and valley lower

Yeah - there are also a lot more men than women in prison.

Re:Greater male than female variability in regional brain st... by Grustaf on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @04:08PM (#22370077)
Surely that is more due to testosterone than stupidity.
Re:Greater male than female variability in regional brain st... by belorn on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @07:16PM (#22371595)
Modern research says no.

There has been a lot of research on this topic. You can not measure the testosterone in a group and make a prediction about who is going to commit a crime. If you measure testosterone on criminals, you can't make any prediction about what kind of crime they did.

There are weak associations such as risk taking (possible facilitated through increased dopamine transmitters), but there are much stronger links between criminals. To mention a few: Social economical status, social support structure, and childhood trauma is much better predictors than high testosterone.

Hormones are a terrible explanation for crime, even if they often have a weak association. Did you know that women are much more likely to have committed a crime during pms? The crime statistics support the link, but ask a researcher and they will list multiple reason why such correlation make for very weak association rather than strong evidence of a link between hormones and crime.

Re:Greater male than female variability in regional brain st... by Grustaf on Thursday February 20, 2020 @05:09AM (#22373979)
> You can not measure the testosterone in a group and make a prediction about who is going to commit a crime.

Well, if the group is mixed, with both men and women, then you can predict that 95% of the violent crimes will be committed by people with higher testosterone (i.e. men). Surely in that sense it's about testosterone, not genitalia?.

That's why it's very surprising to hear that the _level_ of testosterone among men has no predictive power.

Re:Greater male than female variability in regional brain st... by belorn on Thursday February 20, 2020 @07:57AM (#22374728)
Nope, higher testosterone is not an predicting factor for violent crimes. If you measure a mixed group what you get is the same correlation as you would get with any other sex trait.

Many research papers has been written on the topic of testosterone and violence, including meta studies. The general conclusions is... there is a weak link between testosterone and violence. No cause and effect, but there is a small amplification of existing behavior, a common finding among endogenous studies.

The full reason is complex, but a simplification is that testosterone increase preexisting behavior in relation to social status hierarchy. It makes individuals spend more energy in defending their place on the ladder (spending more time looking at faces to recognize threat, increased response to threatening faces, more suspicion against ambiguous faces). This in turn has a link towards violence, but only in cultures where status is given as an reward for violence.

But there is an additional complexity that should be mentioned. A lot of the effects of hormones such as testosterone only happen as a result of changing levels of hormones rather than absolute values. The absolute value has less of a predictive effect then changes over a short time frame.

Re:Greater male than female variability in regional brain st... by lliamander on Thursday February 20, 2020 @01:13PM (#22377168)
Interesting. So, my understanding is that most male violence is committed by males between the ages of 15 and 25 (roughly). That is also generally the period of highest testosterone levels in men. What would cause the spike in violence if not the elevated testosterone levels?

I have a couple guesses:

1. This may be a period in which men experience the greatest status uncertainty and so may resort to violence in an attempt to solidify their place in a social hierarchy.

2. This is generally the age range during which many disorders that are more prevalent or severe in men (such as schizophrenia, bi-polar, etc.) begin to manifest.

Re:Greater male than female variability in regional brain st... by belorn on Thursday February 20, 2020 @03:32PM (#22378307)
15 to roughly 25 is the period when the frontal cortex is maturing, and also the period where peer influence has the most impact on development. The frontal cortex is highly involved in silencing the fear response, and in determining the socially correct response to threats, particularly threats towards a person's social position (a common theme for studies around violence).

1) I have not read any study however that looked at periods of social uncertainty, but it sounds plausible.

2) My guess would go towards the relation of frontal cortex maturation. Before fully maturation, other parts of the brain "step in" and handle some of the frontal cortex' role, but by around age 25 they stop doing that.

Re:Greater male than female variability in regional brain st... by lliamander on Friday February 21, 2020 @05:58PM (#22387851)
> My guess would go towards the relation of frontal cortex maturation. Before fully maturation, other parts of the brain "step in" and handle some of the frontal cortex' role, but by around age 25 they stop doing that.

So, do you mean that such disorders originate from the frontal cortex, and that the reason they manifest by 25 or so is because it is at that point that the frontal cortex is no longer "supported" by other parts of the brain and it's flaws become apparent? Interesting if so.

Re:Greater male than female variability in regional brain st... by Grustaf on Thursday February 20, 2020 @04:09PM (#22378656)
Of course it’s an excellent predictor in a MIXED group. Testosterone predicts BEING male or not and being male predicts violent crime, almost perfectly.
Re:Greater male than female variability in regional brain st... by lliamander on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @04:58PM (#22370522)
testosterone certainly has a big impact, but the prison population also tends to have a much lower IQ average than the general population, and also tends have much higher rates of psychiatric disorders (schizophrenia, etc.).
Re:Greater male than female variability in regional brain st... by Zod666 on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @05:29PM (#22370797)
Testosterone also leads to risk taking. Stupid risks and smart ones. Testosterone plus intelligence may be why there are more male cofounders/CEO's...
Re:Greater male than female variability in regional brain st... by proc0 on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @04:33PM (#22370327)
Arguably testosterone can lead to stupid decisions.
Re:Greater male than female variability in regional brain st... by steve1977 on Thursday February 20, 2020 @03:23AM (#22373570)
Who says testosterone is not related to stupidity? ;)
Re:Greater male than female variability in regional brain st... by hatenberg on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @04:23PM (#22370236)
Never ascribe to testosterone what can be adequately explained with Dunning Kruger
Re:Greater male than female variability in regional brain st... by Grustaf on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @06:18PM (#22371196)
How would Dunning Kruger cause young men to commit crimes?
Re:Greater male than female variability in regional brain st... by hatenberg on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @06:36PM (#22371309)
Assuming they won't get caught?
Re:Greater male than female variability in regional brain st... by aantix on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @02:29PM (#22369103)
How do these studies control for social encouragement?
Re:Greater male than female variability in regional brain st... by mjfl on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @02:43PM (#22369244)
you could run a female cohort that is subject to nonstop social encouragement "you are powerful. you belong." and then observe whether they reach the same levels of achievement. If they do not, then this is evidence that the achievement is not due to social encouragement.

You could alternatively look at the negative manifestations of variability, like increase crime and violence, and try to socially discourage it. Expose males to "crime is bad. bad men go to prison where they cannot have sex with women for many years. if you do crime you are bad." Observe whether crime rate of men relative to women decreases. If it does not, it is evidence that social encouragement is not responsible for the difference in crime.

You could also do a control where you discouraged men from achieving. "Nerds are gross" and see if that leads to a victory for feminism.

Re:Greater male than female variability in regional brain st... by szemet on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @03:11PM (#22369528)
Has already been done in the Polgar family, e.g.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polg%C3%A1r

The article has some quotations about Judits opinion:

"I always say that women should have the self-confidence that they are as good as male players, but only if they are willing to work and take it seriously as much as male players."

and after a tournsment in 1988 (12yo)

"These other girls are not serious about chess...I practice five or six hours a day, but they get distracted by cooking and work around the house."

Re:Greater male than female variability in regional brain st... by LiquidSky on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @05:37PM (#22370859)
>Has already been done in the Polgar family,

Well, no, it hasn't, because whatever the one family does can't change society at large and the messages/treatment women receive from it. The quotes you provide are examples of that.

Re:Greater male than female variability in regional brain st... by LiquidSky on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @05:39PM (#22370867)
But you can't do this because you can't isolate people from society at large.