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Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by PragmaticPulp on Monday February 17, 2020 @11:36PM (#22353484)
My experience with investor-provided talent has been very poor.

Historically, the problem is that VCs tend to send "subject matter expert" type consultants who give advice. Startups need someone to do the work more than they need someone to give the advice. The VC-provided talent usually generated more work than they solved with questionable returns for the company.

Unless Reid Hoffman has cracked the code of sending the right people to get work done, I'm suspicious.

Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by skrebbel on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @02:45AM (#22354223)
FWIW, I had the exact same experience, and I lost faith in the "operational VC" model. Hiring the right people is hard for everybody, and the chance that a VC can spin up an "agency" style department that somehow has the best people is really small.

The entire model attracts the kind of "consultants who give advice" you describe. After all, people who want to get their hands dirty, i.e. people who are a good fit with startups, are overwhelmingly going to want to work directly for said startups.

We also had this super weird mismatch with perceived value. The operational VC "billed" agency-style, so by the hour, at (to us) outrageous hourly rates. It was like 6x what we'd pay a salaried employee doing the same work. We didn't "feel" it as bad because it cost us equity, not money. But we'd have never hired that agency for that money, if it was cash. The moment we realized that this was the case, we stopped the collaboration. It was a costly distraction and nothing more.

I'm curious if Hoffman found a way around this, but I don't see it in this article.

Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by commoner on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @03:20AM (#22354354)
Hoffman has no incentive to find a way around costly billing practices, since it benefits his VC firm (Sweat Equity Ventures).

This kind of pricing, when implemented, is a clear case where the interests of the startup and the VC are misaligned. It's up to the founders to recognize that the "operational VC" model is a bad deal for themselves, and reject it accordingly.

Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by skrebbel on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @03:59AM (#22354520)
> since it benefits his VC firm

That's only assuming he doesn't understand the VC model, which I doubt. The extremely power-law nature of VC investments means he can get better returns if he maximizes the growth trajectory of his portfolio companies, than if he maximizes the size of his share (by billing at high rates, i.e. at the cost of potentially less steep growth). Unless he's a moron, he'll genuinely want his sweat investment to cause tremendous growth more than anything else.

I think that the incentives are aligned as much as they are with cash VC investments (i.e. closely, but not entirely, because the founder has all their eggs in a single basket and the VC doesn't). I just think he can't pull it off. :-)

Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by commoner on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @04:14AM (#22354578)
I don't think the incentives (for VCs and founders) associated with cash and "services" investments are equally aligned. The main reason is not the potential for overbilling, which you mentioned, but because the VC gains a significant amount of influence over the company when the company hires the VC's close associates, which generates a conflict of interest.

But back to the billing: it is in the VC's best interest to acquire the largest possible percentage of the company at the lowest possible cost. When the VC is investing "services" instead of cash, and has control over the pricing of the services, it would be in the VC's interest to provide a smaller quantity of services in exchange for the same amount of equity, since this decreases the VC's cost of investment.

You're right that it would not make sense for the VC to make a deal that is egregious enough to choke the company's growth, since that would diminish the value of the equity, but rational VCs would not intentionally make such a deal. Also, since the services in this arrangement cost the company equity, not cash, I think overbilling would only hurt the company through opportunity costs (as the equity could have been used to obtain a better offer).

Whether it makes sense for the VC to overbill for services also depends on how much equity the VC owns. Most of my above comments operate under the assumption that the VC owns a small percentage of the company.

Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by skrebbel on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @05:22AM (#22354875)
> Also, since the services in this arrangement cost the company equity, not cash, I think overbilling would only hurt the company through opportunity costs (as the equity could have been used to obtain a better offer).

This is a good point that I had not considered yet. Thanks, I agree.

Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by imtringued on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @10:28AM (#22356705)
VCs want a chunk of that growth. Giving a startup you don't own 30% annual growth in exchange for a fixed salary doesn't look like a good deal.
Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by emeerson on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @07:47PM (#22362023)
I suspect this is because these are wolves in operator's clothing. If you deploy true operators that are doing labor in their area of expertise, and if they can pre-empt obvious mistakes + generate reproducible playbooks, you could net out ahead.
Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by leandot on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @07:17AM (#22355385)
This. Pretty much each sentence.
Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by mike_d on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @02:59AM (#22354275)
> ...consultants who give advice. Startups need someone to do the work more than they need someone to give the advice.

I've been on the other side of this with a few startups, and the right answer is almost never to come in and drop a bunch of code as much as founders would like an extra set of hands.

A good SME can come in and have a solid whiteboard session with a team to shave off the first two iterations of development. I've done this before from a security perspective where just making the developers aware of the sharp edges and being available to answer questions was a massive force multiplier.

Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by heavenlyblue on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @04:11AM (#22354568)
What exactly are you whiteboarding there if this is an early-stage startup?
Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by brandmeyer on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @08:47AM (#22365347)
Minimize time figuring out how to shave the yak.
Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by alasdair_ on Monday February 17, 2020 @11:58PM (#22353572)
I could see VC-provided specialists, like a lawyer, CPA, perhaps also specific skills like a data scientist before a startup has enough cash to employ one full-time but I don’t see why this would be any better than the startup employing the contractor themselves with cash.
Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by jjeaff on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @05:06AM (#22354801)
I can see a much better situation where the VC gives you cash so you can hire your own CPA and lawyer.

We had a VC pull this garbage once. Although it wasn't for equity. They just offered it as a service "at cost".

We dropped their $90/hr Manhatten based book keeper and $800/hr attorney just as quick as we could without ruffling too many feathers.

Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by te_chris on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @05:41AM (#22354973)
Most of these people I've met in London are all ex consulting, so basically useless day to day.
Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by nl on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @04:41AM (#22354686)
Elsewhere in this discussion someone said they are finance and operations people.

I think that's moderately useful - doing the work on building financial models or finding operational hacks to solve specific problems can be helpful, and isn't really a thing where it is annoying bringing a person up to speed only for them to leave.

Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by Nasrudith on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @08:04AM (#22355693)
Really even if VCs were utterly rational their model already incentivizes "go big or go home" on a grand scale. You as a founder would be perfectly fine with a "mere" 10% chance of a "just" 10M$ company to early retire, work with independence to be able to walk away at will, or bootstrap depending on ambitions. VCs would win more amortized over all of their funding a 0.01% chance for a $100B company. That fits with the current big money model of trying to pump up a given service with no business model to get user base and then have it collapse after they alienate their users trying to monetize it. It looks utterly stupid and may be a form of economic resource misallocation (both as a matter of opinion and derth of comparable data) but it benefits the VC.
Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by gowld on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @10:17AM (#22356617)
> You as a founder would be perfectly fine with a "mere" 10% chance of a "just" 10M$ company to early retire

No way. Assuming a 4 year investment that's lower pay than a low risk bigcorp job.

Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by Drdrdrq on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @10:45AM (#22356817)
But waaaay more interesting. :)
Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by anthm1988 on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @08:02PM (#22362118)
The vast majority of people aren't making 2.5 million a year even at the biggest corporations.
Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by mercutio2 on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @11:44PM (#22363097)
I was about to say the same thing, then I realized the point is that a 10% chance of $2.5M/year == $250k/year expected return, which IS lower than your expected return working for a BigCo (there’s a distribution of income depending on how you perform, there, too, but it’s much lower risk).

This is a little bit disingenuous, because I’m pretty confident outside the 10% best case, there’s a pretty broad distribution where you work long hours and come away with SOME return, so I suspect the expected return may be close to even for passionate founders, albeit probably with more stress in the overall effort.

Of course, the people starting companies usually aren’t guessing they have a 10% chance of success; you need to believe you’re an outlier to be successful in the startup game, it seems to me.

Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by Axsuul on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @08:57AM (#22356056)
This may be the case for some but not for all. There are some business models that do require funding. Many of the services and software that you use on a daily basis wouldn't be around if it weren't for VCs. Not everything is bootstrap or die (disclaimer: I'm a bootstrapped founder).
Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by enra on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @12:35AM (#22353733)
Also, I think VCs pick operational talent on "political" reasons, mainly people they have gotten to know somehow from previous companies they invested in or as founders. These people while might be good, do not necessarily have a good skillset or fit for your company.
Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by notahacker on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @06:39AM (#22355203)
The area where I can see a VC's network adding a lot of value is 'person who built sales operation for growth company in related market'. That's not necessarily someone that's easy for a startup to hire, especially pre-Series A. On the other hand anyone if someone's output is aspirational pitch decks and market-scoping, at least one of the founders is already good at that to have got the VC interested, and by the time a startup's challenge is scaling operations the startup has cash to pay for the expertise.
Re:Reid Hoffman's $30M bet: Send partners, not cash, to star... by pmart123 on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @09:29AM (#22356285)
I can see that. In my experience, it works to have a subject matter expect at as a consultant/mentor to a few young and hungry employees. Essentially, the expert can help lead a team through big technical decisions or when there is a roadblock. However, the expert likely doesn’t want to put in the hours or do the necessary grunt work.