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Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by pcr910303 on Sunday February 16, 2020 @01:56PM (#22343138)
South Korean here, explanation for some context:

South Korea has a deep legacy of MS-DOS/Windows, and it’s reliance of Microsoft’s OS is very high. This mostly is due to two reasons: the high use of the unique word processor(Hangul Word Processor) and the legacy ActiveX plugins used for cryptography when banking.

In the 90s, multiple internet service providers used ActiveX technology (for people who doesn’t know, it’s basically binary plugin technology to provide unlimited access to the local environment) to provide services. They were used to provide VOD services, etc... and when online shopping & banking started in the mid 90s the government mandated use of a 128bit crypto algorithm. At that time, the dominant browser IE only had 40 bit crypto due to US’s export restrictions — so the 128 bit algorithm they decided to use was a independently developed algorithm called SEED, which was then implemented in ActiveX by the banks and shopping malls. This became a legacy, and for a long time even after the restriction was removed, people were forced to use ActiveX plugins until the smartphones came and the banks were forced to rewrite the system. There are still a lot of banks mandating the use of Windows for desktops — that’s one reason why the Windows was so popular.

Windows 10 AFAIK (I’ve never used it, so I’m not really sure) is much more strict to the binary plugins, and Internet Explorer is almost going to die — so a lot of people were staying on Windows 7, including most of the government. By the deprecation of Windows 7, the government thought that this was a good time to remove much of the legacy that enforces Windows, and is considering Linux for one of its options.

One of the reasons why I have some hope on this project is because the government’s use of Windows is basically for two things — the ActiveX plugins in the web (which are mostly disappeared thanks to smartphones) and the Hangul Word Processor, which was exclusively only on Windows until about 2008, when a Linux version was released for a short period of time (and was removed due to the lack of interest). If the government decides to transition to Linux, Hancom(HWP’s developer) can prioritize the Linux port — which, in 2008 was already fully featured and has almost zero compatibility problems! (People using Linux still use the 2008 version by dockerizing the whole environment.)

Some context on the operating systems that were mentioned:

The Harmonica OS is a Linux Mint-based distribution that is localized thoroughly and has a lot of baseline programs (like the input methods) installed, and is pretty great for daily use.

The Tmax OS is... basically a scam OS that... well uses a big mix of Linux, BSD, and Wine’s code, a homemade custom DE that is a poor ripoff of the windows interface and tries to integrate them (unsuccessfully)... and advertise as a ‘pure Korean OS’ to the officials.

Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by noobermin on Sunday February 16, 2020 @03:05PM (#22343466)
The activX dependence is one hell of a thing. I once applied for grad school in Seoul and it was a harrowing experience just sending them documents.
Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by boulos on Sunday February 16, 2020 @02:17PM (#22343245)
Since you’re here, can you explain what’s special about the Hancom/Hangul office software?

The Wikipedia articles all just say things like “specialized support” or “special needs”. I would have assumed that the key requirement is Hangul input, which presumably other word processing and spreadsheet programs could do just fine.

Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by pcr910303 on Sunday February 16, 2020 @02:28PM (#22343306)
> I would have assumed that the key requirement is Hangul input, which presumably other word processing and spreadsheet programs could do just fine.

Hangul support was a key feature in the 80s where everything was MS-DOS; and it wasn’t prevalent then where a lot of hangul-supporting word processors were on the market.

The killer feature of the Hangul Word Processor to most users is that it allows substantial control on the layout of the document... in a way that westerners don’t really care. (That’s a direct quote from a foreigner I know, maybe an over-generalization.) So the Korean Government and a lot of corporations were very committed on transitioning documents that were written by hand, to computers, and they also wanted to have this exact layout and form that was used before. Most forms are based out of tables — and I can’t really explain this in text, but it gives you the power to layout the text the exact way you want, while in Word, you feel like you’re wrestling with the layout engine. (Kinda like... if Word is old CSS where you had to use all kinds of float hacks to make your fragile layout, HWP gives you flexbox and grids... etc....) Some says that HWP is more like a DTD program like InDesign (I’ve never used it so I can’t really comment) rather than a usual word processor that other countries use... but everybody is just super used to having all that control, so nobody can really transition back to Word.

Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by dmix on Sunday February 16, 2020 @04:27PM (#22343863)
> while in Word, you feel like you’re wrestling with the layout engine.

That's an understatement, the UX for that in Word is pretty awful without some deep familiarity. Even using tables to format stuff was difficult and choppy.

Although I've never had to use Word professionally and fortunately most of my education just required the standard format + some spacing requirements, which were easy.

Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by boulos on Sunday February 16, 2020 @03:02PM (#22343449)
Interesting! I’m curious why people never moved to say Quark XPress then, but presumably it was “Hancom makes us this super custom thing, and it’s way cheaper than any desktop publishing software”.

Is there a lot of diversity in the types of documents people make? (Like, why isn’t this a case of having lots of templates?)

Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by pcr910303 on Sunday February 16, 2020 @07:51PM (#22344722)
> I’m curious why people never moved to say Quark XPress then, but presumably it was “Hancom makes us this super custom thing, and it’s way cheaper than any desktop publishing software”.

First of all, QuarkXPress had shitty, really shitty language support. You might be surprised when you know that most pro apps have really, really poor CJK support — apps like Photoshop currently has really hacky input support bolted on later, and frequently a problem. Even big, user facing apps like Microsoft Excel still has lots of problems with input. So back in the days where the word processor market was more diverse, QuarkXPress was not an option.

Then also, there is the popularity problem where people have not used or even heard about DTD software like this, and it’s not really a friendly interface for users to create and modify documents.

This is a side story but... publishers that needed DTD software used QuarkXPress back in the day. The company backing the software had frequent conflicts with the local publishers with license pricing, and the publishers decided to protest by not upgrading to the latest version — and AFAIK lots of small publishers that didn’t have the manpower to convert all of it’s files to InDesign still buys used PowerMacs to run the version(I’m not sure but something like 3.3 — released in 1996!) that they use.

> Is there a lot of diversity in the types of documents people make? (Like, why isn’t this a case of having lots of templates?)

> presumably it was “Hancom makes us this super custom thing, and it’s way cheaper than any desktop publishing software”.

Yeah, pretty much true too.

Having lots of templates in HWP is one of the reason why HWP isn’t disappearing; there is vendor lock-in due to custom file formats, and people don’t feel any reason to move to another one.

Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by mistrial9 on Sunday February 16, 2020 @08:35PM (#22344874)
partial story here -- lots of work was done on CJKV input systems, in each decade, but in many Asian markets (Taiwan, Hong Kong, Vietnam for SURE) piracy was rampant, which does not feed an R&D cycle.

Unicode was standardized, then the utf8 format after that, which *nix took full advantage of, but other legacy software (see paragraph 1) did not evolve in some cases.

Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by pcr910303 on Sunday February 16, 2020 @09:59PM (#22345258)
Piracy is rampant to all popular software; I’m not sure how the conclusion that Asian markets have a higher pircy rate than the western market was reached. I’m pretty sure that MS Office is pirated in the US at least as much as Korea.
Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by hrktb on Sunday February 16, 2020 @06:06PM (#22344291)
I get the feeling that a viable program produced locally was in itself a user feature.

While other global programs could be shoehorned into their use case, it still means poor customizability for specific Korean issues. In particular being optimized for the most common Korean use case vs western designers use cases.

There’s a lot of these local brew word processor in the CJK world, and it’s often more than just language support: there will be hooks for common legal formatting, better handling of common transformations, sometimes a dedicated IME working better for long form writing. It also means more culturally useful templates from first party source, which is surprisingly nice to have IMO.

It’s also interesting that local companies/gov. can pay for additional features or adaptations, have the talent move to other entities in the local economy, etc. which is a way higher hurdle for an Adobe or Microsoft.

Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by kalleboo on Monday February 17, 2020 @12:01PM (#22348977)
> The killer feature of the Hangul Word Processor to most users is that it allows substantial control on the layout of the document... in a way that westerners don’t really care

There's a similar tendency in Japan to use MS Excel for a lot of documents that westerners would use MS Word for for the same reason - detailed, rigid, layout.

Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by totorovirus on Monday February 17, 2020 @02:04AM (#22346079)
Tmax is basically a refugee camp for Ph.D dropouts. I won't criticize much if they were doing their job right. But they are not. They hire engineers from non CS majors from top engineering colleges to impress government officials to invest tax money to their firm.
Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by oblio on Sunday February 16, 2020 @02:06PM (#22343196)
> the government thought that this was a good time to remove much of the legacy that enforces Windows, and is considering Linux for one of its options.

Microsoft will just offer Windows for free and Office at a steep discount and nothing will change. Mark my words :-)

Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by pcr910303 on Sunday February 16, 2020 @02:15PM (#22343235)
> Microsoft will just offer Windows for free

Which... doesn’t have a really incentive now in because all of the legacy components that required Windows in the first place are all broken on Win10...

> Office at a steep discount

... and we don’t really rely on Microsoft Office that much (compared to other countries). The dominant word processor is from a local company (side note: Word is just awful... seriously. Maybe it’s due to no competition., and the local company has viable solutions that provide very high compatibility (seriously, l just can’t believe how they did it, it’s super compatible) with Word, Excel & Powerpoint. (AFAIK they export them to other countries governments as well.)

Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by meeebooo on Sunday February 16, 2020 @07:33PM (#22344668)
But how will Martha in Accounting (or whatever the Korean equivalent of Martha in Accounting is) learn how to deal with the UX terribleness that is most of Linux? Windows she's been using all of her life, it might not be much better but she's used to it.
Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by pcr910303 on Sunday February 16, 2020 @08:05PM (#22344782)
> But how will <someone> learn how to deal with the UX terribleness that is most of Linux?

They learnt to deal with the terrible UX in Windows, no reason they can’t on Linux. :-)

> it might not be much better but she's used to it.

It’s her work, she better get used to it too keep working; That’s a pretty compelling reason to get used to Linux, right?

Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Monday February 17, 2020 @11:16AM (#22348683)
> They learnt to deal with the terrible UX in Windows, no reason they can’t on Linux. :-)

Linux's terrible UIs change pretty much every month as Linux GUI devs get bored and decide to reinvent everything for no reason. Microsoft has only recently started doing that and it's still at a much slower pace.

Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by hutzlibu on Monday February 17, 2020 @01:02PM (#22349324)
If you pick some random community version, then yes.

But you know, there are versions with commercial support out there. And governments could have the budget to actually maintain their own version. (they do btw.)

Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by mr_toad on Sunday February 16, 2020 @09:30PM (#22345120)
> They learnt to deal with the terrible UX in Windows, no reason they can’t on Linux. :-)

They could, but they won’t.

They want Outlook and Word and Excel, and they’ll exhibit a mule-like stubbornness to budge.

Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by pcr910303 on Sunday February 16, 2020 @09:50PM (#22345214)
> They want Outlook and Word and Excel

I’ve mentioned that we don’t use Word, (BTW, seriously, is there anyone who uses Outlook anymore?) and the dominant word processor used in South Korea had a port to Linux that is fully featured and has a very high compatibility since 2008.

Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by eropple on Sunday February 16, 2020 @11:55PM (#22345694)
> (BTW, seriously, is there anyone who uses Outlook anymore?)

Outlook is still huge amongst professions that have to deal with people a lot. The calendaring is better than online solutions (by a lot) and the plugins, I am told, for stuff like Salesforce are awesome.

Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by GoblinSlayer on Monday February 17, 2020 @07:42AM (#22347259)
>They want Outlook and Word and Excel

They are redesigned every version though, there's nothing fixed to want from them.

Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by GoblinSlayer on Monday February 17, 2020 @07:32AM (#22347222)
>UX terribleness

Linux has an upper hand in terms of UX since Windows Vista, and the gap widened greatly since then, go read what people think about metro.

Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by what-the-grump on Sunday February 16, 2020 @02:49PM (#22343395)
No idea where you are getting any of this from...

A little hard to complain when we can take dlls that are 10-12 years old shove them into something like server 2019/SQL 2019, and not think about compatibility.

Same goes for client apps, was your app shit 10 years ago? It's not going to change 10 years later. Did it work in word 10 years ago, it will most likely work 10 years later with zero changes.

Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by hutzlibu on Sunday February 16, 2020 @04:03PM (#22343739)
ActiveX.

See other comments here

Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by oblio on Sunday February 16, 2020 @06:14PM (#22344318)
Are you telling me no one in South Korea uses Photoshop, InDesign, professional video editing software or generally any kind of pro software that doesn't run on Linux?
Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by pcr910303 on Sunday February 16, 2020 @07:24PM (#22344633)
> no one in South Korea uses Photoshop, InDesign, professional video editing software or generally any kind of pro software that doesn't run on Linux

Of course not! :-) I don’t run Linux myself for these reasons... but the government agency PCs has no requirement to run these. The officials shouldn’t run useless programs on work, right? :-)

Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by oblio on Monday February 17, 2020 @04:02AM (#22346439)
You mean that no one in the South Korean government does any kind of professional photo editing (or any other kind of high level professional desktop work)? It could make sense if they outsource all of that. But I doubt that out of millions of people, 100% are just low level clerks typing in forms receive from the public.
Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by pcr910303 on Monday February 17, 2020 @04:32AM (#22346519)
There must be people doing that, but it's not the majority. Which means that the majority of the people can just go along with Linux without Photoshop. If there are people who need them, they can use a Windows PC.

Also, as a side point, AFAIK all of the operating systems that are mentioned in the article has native support for executing Windows applications using Wine - as there are still programs that only support Windows. Unlike other Linux distributions where Wine is a second level citizen, the distributions have preinstalled Wine wrappers for the dominant IM in South Korea so if the government wants it, wrapping up a version of Photoshop that works on Wine won't be that hard.

Re:South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux by modo_mario on Monday February 17, 2020 @05:41AM (#22346726)
Those people that require adobe shit are probably very rare and can still just use windows, mac a VM, Wine or an alternative like krita, inkscape or what have you. And there's probably more work like that for local governments and smaller agencies but then those either already make do with some "marta from accounting made a poster in word" type of design or outsource it since it doesn't make sense to keep someone around permanently.