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Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by SlowRobotAhead on Friday February 14, 2020 @03:29PM (#22330082)
>Also a homeowner, and I'm a YIMBY (or PHIMBY) for selfish reasons as well. My neighborhood is mostly old white people, because they bought their houses years ago and stayed put.

Hmm, here I am thinking I don't really care about the skin color of my neighbors. It's none of my business. But, I try and not judge people on immutable characteristics like color and age.

Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by kbenson on Friday February 14, 2020 @04:53PM (#22330775)
GP could likely have replaced "mostly old white people" with "mostly the same demographic", but it doesn't convey the same information, even if you don't assume implied racism as you did.

The important thing being conveyed is lack of diversity, not whiteness. In the United States, saying something is "mostly white people" conveys that other ethnic groups are not present for some reason (whether it be them self-selecting to not participate or because of exclusion). The purpose is almost always to note diversity or lack-thereof, and assume that the person is making a value judgement about the people because their skin is white is to completely miss the point.

For example, if you bought a pack of starbust candies, and they were almost all orange, you might note or complain that they were almost all orange. I would do so, and orange is my favorite flavor of those. The issue is, I desire the diversity of colors and flavors, and too much orange is not as good as what the added variation brings.

So, "mostly old white people" as a negative doesn't mean old people are bad, or white people are bad, or old white people are bad, but that mostly old white people are not as good as a group that has more variation in it. "Mostly" is the word you should be focusing on, not the other ones.

Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by klipt on Friday February 14, 2020 @05:45PM (#22331180)
Although if someone visited a suburban area in Japan and complained that it had "mostly old Asian people", they'd probably be called racist.
Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by kbenson on Friday February 14, 2020 @06:52PM (#22331657)
I think that depends on the context. If I was visiting that neighborhood in Japan to assess whether I wanted to live there, I think it might not come across as racist as much as similar to how I outlined the prior statement, with some variation because Japan is both a much more homogeneous society, and one where the population as a whole is shifting towards being older on average.

I would also argue that a lot of times people are called racist (or called out for saying racist things) these days are likely because people are also less likely to give others the benefit of a doubt for their actions or words. This is likely complicated in that it appears some people that do harbor racist views feel more emboldened to speak them, but I'm not sure how to pick apart how much is one and how much is the other.

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Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by d3ad1ysp0rk on Friday February 14, 2020 @06:44PM (#22331601)
That's some wild mental gymnastics! Believing that there is value in having ethnic diversity does not mean you believe there are specific differences in races due to biology. It means you believe that people that grew up in different places have different ideas of the world, and different traditions. It means that you are not blind to American and world history and its impact on different immigrant and native cultures. It means you know that white people have differences in culture and tradition, and thus just like having a town full of Steve's would be boring, having a town full of white people is a bit the same.

Since you're running with the candy analogy... your logical next step is way off. GPs candy analogy was supposed to be simple such that we could all start on the same page - either you're being purposefully difficult to try and argue your racism point, or are simply missing it. I like all colors of starburst. They taste different. Different is GOOD. I don't want an all orange package.

Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by kbenson on Friday February 14, 2020 @07:12PM (#22331800)
> To value diversity of ethnicity or race, you must believe there are intrinsic differences between people which are determined by their ethnicity.

I think that's easily proven false. I value diversity of ethnicity and race because I think it's statistically more likely that it results in diversity of culture, and I think that's the real useful thing to be aiming for.

In the United States "white" isn't a race any more than "black" is. It's a short-hand for a cultural identity that our society foists upon you, and it comes with a mostly shared set of experiences and understanding.

A "black" person (which could be historically from Africa, Asia, South America or elsewhere) will likely face some shared set of experiences, as will a "white" person, or an "asian" person, or a "latino" person. The same could be said for a U.S. citizen or a European.

If you think "white" was used as shorthand for "the largest and most dominant cultural identity in America" as I do, then you think that diversity in that brings different perspectives and cultural norms, and some people find that refreshing and interesting (as well as there being some evidence that it provides many other benefits and detriments to various degrees).

So, do I think skin color is an important determinant of some quality in this discussion? Yes. In the case where you're looking at a mostly homogeneous group based on age and likely cultural identity, I think encouraging differences in both age and that cultural identity are likely to introduce more cultural diversity than some other options, and that's based on sociological and statistical beliefs. You may or may not think that qualifies as racism, but I don't, and part of that is because I don't think the result is based on actual skin color, just skin color in a geographic region (that is, a country with a different cultural and ethnic makeup may not see similar results). That means skin color is little other than a statistical marker for other, more useful attributes in this case.

Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by JackFr on Friday February 14, 2020 @04:02PM (#22330364)
Age is very relevant for schools which are typically paid for with local property taxes. If you somehow find yourself moved to a so-called NORC, naturally occurring retirement community, you'll find that older people people with adult children on limited incomes are more reluctant to fund schools than say young working parents.
Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by SlowRobotAhead on Friday February 14, 2020 @04:11PM (#22330438)
You're right. That's a good argument for funding schools with sources besides property taxes. That system intentionally subsidizes renters by getting home owners to pay for schools and tasks people who aren't concerned with the funding to make decisions on it.

edit: YES, it's a nice plan to just raise rent to cover the school taxes. However, unless you are in a popular market, your rent prices may not bear the increase. Example Northeastern PA has cheap rent because there are so many places available, and thus the $4000/yr in school tax portion of the property tax is not able to be passed on to renters.

Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by djrogers on Friday February 14, 2020 @04:37PM (#22330649)
Renters absolutely pay property taxes - just not directly. Every rental unit I’ve ever owned has had the exact same property tax bill as the ones I’ve lived in, and the taxes were paid from the rent collected.

If property taxes increased substantially, I’d have had to raise rent...

Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by foxx-boxx on Friday February 14, 2020 @05:08PM (#22330892)
Property taxes force homeowners to rent their properties in the first place: in 40 years of not renting your property taxes will confiscate it.
Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by lazyasciiart on Friday February 14, 2020 @05:14PM (#22330929)
No they don't.
Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by mlyle on Friday February 14, 2020 @04:37PM (#22330653)
??? Property taxes aren't passed on to renters? Only homeowners pay them, and landlords don't experience them as a cost they need to recover from their tenants?
Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by starik36 on Friday February 14, 2020 @06:14PM (#22331391)
I think he means that taxes are indirectly passed to renters in form of a higher rent.
Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by SlowRobotAhead on Friday February 14, 2020 @06:29PM (#22331482)
Correct, also in the places that the market does not bear it. If your only concept of renting is in the Bay Area or Brooklyn or some high end captive market, you don't really get that you can't always just raise rent until costs are covered. Most of the country won't bear it so the landlord eats it. I have rentals, I know this first hand.
Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by AnthonyMouse on Friday February 14, 2020 @07:14PM (#22331815)
Real estate is one of the most efficient markets. Landlords all over make approximately the same returns as one another, outside of a handful of places where where people are making (or losing) money from speculation.

What happens when you increase property taxes is that property values go down to compensate; it's less valuable to own when you have to pay more to do it. So in the short term the property tax increase hits whoever owned the property when the rate change was announced. But then it becomes less profitable to own property in that area, so people invest less in building new housing there, or even in maintaining the existing housing. That tends to constrain supply and cause rents to increase until you're back at equilibrium. The long-term equilibrium is based on the relationship between rents and total costs. Property tax is a cost so in the long-term higher property taxes result in higher rents. (This isn't counting the pathological cases where higher property taxes reduce property values and investment and the government responds by further raising property taxes until the locality is in a death spiral. Naturally rents in dying localities tend to go down.)

Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by rcpt on Friday February 14, 2020 @08:03PM (#22332163)
> Landlords all over make approximately the same returns as one another

In California long time landlords get Prop 13 tax cuts. New ones don't. They compete for the same tenants and charge the same rent.

Long time landlords have much bigger profit margins because of that law.

Other states have property tax restrictions but I don't know as much about them.

Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by AnthonyMouse on Friday February 14, 2020 @08:36PM (#22332418)
> In California long time landlords get Prop 13 tax cuts. New ones don't. They compete for the same tenants and charge the same rent.

"Long time landlords" and "new landlords" are not inherently different people, they're the same people at different points in time. It's like saying a landlord which has paid off the mortgage on their building makes more money because they don't have to make mortgage payments. The value of the future reduction in property taxes gets priced into the purchase -- but then so does the cost of higher property taxes at the beginning, since the government still needs a given amount of revenue.

The thing Prop 13 really does is to discourage long-time landlords from selling the property at all, because the buyer will have to pay higher property tax than the seller which makes the property "worth more" to the seller, even if it's otherwise worth more to the buyer. For example, this can discourage development because the existing owner doesn't have the inclination or the capital for expansion but would demand enough for the property that it would make it unprofitable to a third party who would have to pay higher taxes.

Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by mlyle on Sunday February 16, 2020 @03:33AM (#22340567)
> "Long time landlords" and "new landlords" are not inherently different people, they're the same people at different points in time.

With the way you can inherit property and keep its valuation, there may be a class of "long-time landlords"-- individuals and organizations-- emerging in major cities. Especially, as you note, since Prop 13 discourages transactions.

Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by CapitalistCartr on Friday February 14, 2020 @04:53PM (#22330773)
I grew up in an all-white town. All-white schools, all-white neighborhoods, all-white businesses. I would not raise my children like that. I made sure my current area was colorfully diverse before buying.
Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by lopmotr on Friday February 14, 2020 @06:16PM (#22331408)
While not America, I live in a minority white suburb. I don't want to have a school-age child here because it's, not coincidentally, one of the poorest places in the city and thus is only in zone for the worst schools. Poor people's kids drag down the quality of their schools. So you have to be careful your diversity doesn't overshoot and end up a ghetto.
Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by d3ad1ysp0rk on Friday February 14, 2020 @06:46PM (#22331615)
Wish I had seen this blatantly gross reply before replying in good faith above...
Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by not_literally on Friday February 14, 2020 @03:51PM (#22330273)
You seem to be misinterpreting what they meant by "old white people" to show this forum (and yourself?) how virtuous you are.
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Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by brobinson on Friday February 14, 2020 @03:44PM (#22330214)
^ undisclosed affiliate link
Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by davidw on Friday February 14, 2020 @04:25PM (#22330553)
Also a link to a site whose owner makes utter gobs of money if that's of concern to people.

I usually get $10 a month or so if I occasionally post a link that I think is highly relevant to a discussion, that I turn around and spend on more books.

Happy to buy anyone a beer with the massive amounts of cash I'm raking in.

Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by sadproton on Friday February 14, 2020 @03:55PM (#22330304)
Age is the most mutable characteristic I can possibly imagine.
Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by SlowRobotAhead on Friday February 14, 2020 @03:57PM (#22330324)
immuutable: unchanging over time or unable to be changed

Well, crap, that's a fair point... But... You can't go backwards and you can't go forwards any faster than anyone else. You can't change it yourself no matter how hard you try (general relativity spaceships aside of course).