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Re:Crypto AG by pluc on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @10:32AM (#22309584)
What's scary is if they willingly admitted to this, they've secured other means of decryption. American-owned technology can't be trusted any more than Chinese-owned technology.
Re:Crypto AG by hn3333 on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @10:35AM (#22309609)
Personally, I do however have more faith in the secret agencies of western democracies than China. So all things being equal, right now I'd prefer Americans and Germans spied on me.
Re:Crypto AG by DennisP on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @10:42AM (#22309688)
I'd rather be an American spied on by American secret agencies, than a citizen of China spied on by China.

However, as a citizen and resident of America I'd rather be spied on by China, because it's a lot easier for my own government to make trouble for me.

Re:Crypto AG by whatshisface on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @11:16AM (#22310042)
Further, you are likely to get people to rally against China's spying, whereas a significant fraction of Americans want you to be spied on (because they can't distinguish between the people and their government).
Re:Crypto AG by eska on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @12:23PM (#22310677)
The American government is not going to steal your company's secrets and give them to other companies, the Chinese government in fact does.
Re:Crypto AG by siv- on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @03:56PM (#22312725)
The US has also engages in economic espionage.
Re:Crypto AG by Areading314 on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @11:31AM (#22310200)
Dont be so sure. Plenty of retribution can be achieved online and unlawfully
Re:Crypto AG by janvidar on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @10:43AM (#22309706)
Isn't this just a "...but, I have nothing to hide" argument?

The values of the regimes in control are transient and ever changing. You might be okay with it right now - but maybe not in the near future.

Re:Crypto AG by taborj on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @10:50AM (#22309773)
Rights once given away are nearly impossible to get back. All rights, I might add, not just your right to privacy. You may not care about <thing> today but at some point in the future, you may.
Re:Crypto AG by darawk on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @11:03AM (#22309900)
Not really. There is an important difference, in my opinion, between covert surveillance conducted for national intelligence purposes, and surveillance conducted for run of the mill police purposes.

There is no real way around the fact that national intelligence agencies need to conduct mass surveillance of various kinds. National intelligence is a competitive zero sum game, and if we don't do it, others will, and we'll be at a disadvantage.

The same is not true for policing, however. The real danger to citizen rights is when the crossover happens. I'm not worried when the CIA spies on me - i'm worried when the FBI does. I'm worried when the tools of international intelligence get turned to more mundane matters. And I think that is the transition that we have to fight tooth and nail. Fighting the "don't spy on me NSA" battle was lost decades ago, and you were never going to win anyway in any material way. Because even if you could stop the NSA from doing it, every other government in the world would be doing it.

What we need to do is fight to keep that surveillance contained within the international intelligence mission, and not let it creep into domestic policing.

Re:Crypto AG by blotter_paper on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @11:11AM (#22309983)
If they wanna spy on us without warrants, they should amend the constitution about it; until then, it's treason.
Re:Crypto AG by dlsso on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @10:49AM (#22309764)
Really? Your local government has far more power over you than China does. I wouldn't be nearly as worried about China unless I was worth stealing from, assassinating, or something like that.
Re:Crypto AG by mytailorisrich on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @10:56AM (#22309828)
Neither China, Germany, nor the USA care about you enough to spy on you.

They only care about what is valuable to protect and advance their geopolitical and commercial interests, which are remarkably similar.

Crypto AG was gold because their products were used by governments and perhaps high level business executives.

Re:Crypto AG by denzil_correa on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @10:48AM (#22309758)
It’s almost a False Dilemma - you shouldn’t have to choose between the bad and the worse.
Re:Crypto AG by tiborsaas on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @10:51AM (#22309787)
I don't have any trust in any secret agencies :) Their job is literally to deal with all the shady stuff you don't want to see in the news.
Re:Crypto AG by hatenberg on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @10:48AM (#22309753)
If someone spied on me, I think it being a government in another country not collaborating with my own and very busy keeping up with their own population seems preferabke
Re:Crypto AG by sorokod on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @11:49AM (#22310372)
Individuals are not the targets here, states are and their preferences may differ according to the prevailing winds of international politics.
Re:Crypto AG by jmull on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @10:53AM (#22309805)
Not exactly. Don't get confused by false equivalencies.

This company is a problem because it's controlled by an American intelligence agency. The owners knew that was a problem, of course, and went to great lengths to hide that fact. Note that Crypto AG appeared to be a Swiss company, not an American one.

Typical American companies aren't controlled by the CIA or other government agencies.

Typical Chinese companies are substantially controlled by the Chinese government.

It's a rather important difference when trying to figure out the risks of how much you can trust who you work with. There's subterfuge, of course, so there aren't hard and simple rules. This is an exercise in risk management.

It's a rather large mistake to conclude Chinese Owned == American Owned.

Re:Crypto AG by newfeatureok on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @10:57AM (#22309836)
You can't say definitely that American companies are or are not controlled by government agencies.
Re:Crypto AG by darawk on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @10:58AM (#22309850)
No, you can't. His point is that you can say definitively that Chinese companies are controlled by government agencies, though.
Re:Crypto AG by pinkfoot on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @11:06AM (#22309928)
Well, don't foget In-Q-Tel: the CIA's very own venture capital company. What better way to launder look-away money, or insert code.

Have a gander at the companies they have had their paws on: Palantir, Inktomi, Docker, ArcSight, etc.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-Q-Tel

Re:Crypto AG by newfeatureok on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @10:59AM (#22309861)
What does "controlled by government agencies" mean?
Re:Crypto AG by maqp on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @11:07AM (#22309955)
"Typical American companies aren't controlled by the CIA or other government agencies."

True but that doesn't mean there aren't national interests in play when it comes to information security companies deploying crypto products. Think RSA e.g. who took bribes and implemented Dual EC DRBG -- a backdoored random number generator for a number of their cryptographic systems.

There are most likely others, thus transparency via open source (and verifiability via reproducible builds to split hairs) is necessary to avoid this ever happening again.

Re:Crypto AG by marsRoverDev on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @11:03AM (#22309898)
> Typical American companies aren't controlled by the CIA or other government agencies.

Unless the CIA has any interest in them, in which they get pwned pretty quickly.

Re:Crypto AG by jmull on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @12:01PM (#22310491)
No. That's my exact point. The CIA can't just get control of a company because they want to. Not that it's impossible, but there isn't a reliable mechanism for doing so.

They would need to somehow subvert key executives and subvert key employees to convince them to add back doors and keep quiet about it.

Their levers on such people (carrots and sticks, threats and bribes) aren't that easy to deploy either, especially en mass and in the US. There are a lot of legal hurdles. (The CIA has a lot more legal latitude outside the US than in -- that's very likely an important reason AG Crypto is a Swiss company and not an American one.) Not that the CIA always scrupulously follows the law -- they don't -- but they have to be careful about it.

I suppose you can just believe the CIA hits the "pwn" button anytime they like. But that doesn't have anything to do with the way things work.

Re:Crypto AG by taborj on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @10:48AM (#22309750)
I'm not sure they willingly admitted it. I read a story[0] that said the information was leaked.

[0] https://www.businessinsider.com/cia-secretly-bought-encrypti...

Re:Crypto AG by JulianMorrison on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @10:40AM (#22309672)
I have a strong suspicion this is why they are so down on Huawei, to the point of outright leaning on the British government.

Not because the Chinese are tapping it, but because they aren't.

Re:Crypto AG by maqp on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @11:14AM (#22310023)
There's nothing that prevents the US government from hacking Chinese TelCo equipment. Thus I think it's more likely it's about traditional competition. Of course it's cheaper to put a "NOBUS" backdoor than to hack systems and estabilish presistence on Chinese HW.
Re:Crypto AG by S_A_P on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @10:46AM (#22309733)
Do you mean in addition to the Chinese tapping it the americans are unable to? I would agree if that is what you mean. I would also add that in hindsight, it looks like Huawei is the same arrangement as Crypto.
Re:Crypto AG by JulianMorrison on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @10:56AM (#22309827)
The UK government argument has been "we're not putting this stuff where a Chinese wiretap would get them anything", as I understand it, it's isolated to low security contexts. And they want Huawei because it's technically superior (needs fewer masts).

The panicky US response makes most sense if the reply they can't say out loud is "but you're putting it in places where it interferes with our wiretapping!"

This is probably not accidental.

Re:Crypto AG by 101404 on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @12:45PM (#22310878)
You should try living for a while in a country with no rule of law and no judicial system. I suspect you would quickly change your views.