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Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by JohnJamesRambo on Sunday February 02, 2020 @02:43PM (#22218922)
Katrina was when I realized how silly it is to think our government would ever deal effectively with a major disaster and how vulnerable we are.
Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by pdonis on Sunday February 02, 2020 @03:00PM (#22219042)
By "our government" do you just mean the Federal government? Or do you mean all levels of government? The mayor of New Orleans had parking lots full of empty school buses and claimed he had no way to evacuate citizens. The governor of Louisiana whined and wrung her hands instead of doing anything. The Federal response was far from perfect but it was much more effective than the state or local response.
Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by Rapzid on Sunday February 02, 2020 @03:39PM (#22219270)
> parking lots full of empty school buses and claimed he had no way to evacuate citizens

That just sounds like a sensational headline lacking in context and details. For example, with Hurricane Harvey in Houston they had to weigh calling mass evacuation against the ability of the road system to handle that much traffic. It doesn't matter how many buses you have in a parking lot if they can't leave the city. I'm not saying that was the case in New Orleans, but I'm certainly not going to assume the worst from "parking lots full of empty school buses".

Honestly, is there even a known good example of how the response to Katrina should have been? Most people's complaints about it seem so shallow in their analysis as to appear a projection of their distaste for the Bush administration or the local politicians; nearly 15 years later.

Edit: Could you imagine an NTSB report on an airplane crash: "Air traffic control had three empty runways but said they had no way to land the plane! If they hadn't just whined and wrung their hands, perhaps everybody would have survived that flight.."

Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by Mountain_Skies on Sunday February 02, 2020 @03:53PM (#22219341)
A teenager stole one of those buses, drove it around his neighborhood, picking up people who had no way to evacuate, and then drove them out of town. He was legally in the wrong on many accounts but from a practical point of view, he did what needed to be done to save at least one bus load of people.

The federal response should have been just that, a response afterwards. The efforts before Katrina hit should have been mostly the responsibility of the local and state governments with the feds helping out with the logistics of the evacuees once they were out of the path of the storm.

Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by pdonis on Sunday February 02, 2020 @03:59PM (#22219387)
> That just sounds like a sensational headline lacking in context and details.

It was well documented by multiple investigations after the fact.

Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by stevehawk on Sunday February 02, 2020 @07:40PM (#22220523)
That they had a bunch of school buses sitting around? Did they also have a bunch of bus drivers, or other qualified people with CDLs, sitting around on call? Because most of them are usually part time employees with second or third jobs and probably also had their own families and problems to solve.
Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by Supermancho on Sunday February 02, 2020 @07:58PM (#22220589)
> Did they also have a bunch of bus drivers, or other qualified people with CDLs, sitting around on call?

You unwittingly demonstrate the cruelty of bearaucratic thinking that is inconsequential in the face of real human disaster, ultimately leading to tragedy.

Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by pdonis on Sunday February 02, 2020 @08:23PM (#22220699)
> That they had a bunch of school buses sitting around?

That they had an obvious resource which with proper planning (which would, of course, include lining up drivers) could have been used to evacuate large numbers of people, but which was not used at all, and was not even considered in what little prior planning the city and the state did do.

> most of them are usually part time employees with second or third jobs and probably also had their own families and problems to solve.

Um, put the drivers' families on the bus they're driving?

Again, this is the sort of thing proper advance planning will obviously take into account.

Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by unishark on Sunday February 02, 2020 @06:44PM (#22220285)
A category 4 hurricane would level most buildings and kill damn near everyone wherever the eye actually lands (luckily Katrina lost power very fast when it hit land and the eye was miles from downtown). So there's really no option but to evacuate, besides just pray it turns away.

Houston is way bigger than New Orleans, but either way you obviously can't evacuate a major city in one day. Their first obvious mistake was waiting way too long to call it (of course a very easy thing to say after the fact). As I recall, Bush was calling on the mayor and governor to evacuate for a couple days before they finally did. Then there was confusion about which govt was in charge with the gov finally taking over the city then Bush taking over the state. In the mayor's defense, he never really had much power to being with, and cops were abandoning their posts so I don't know who he could have called on to get things done. And as you say, once it become national politics, it's impossible to get much objective analysis.

As for examples, the comparison was made to Cuba. A small city in a small country with an absolute dictator calling the shots. I get the impression that the previous poster wanted to criticize Bush as being dictatorial, which is ironic, since it's ultimately a lack of federal domination that everyone complains about in Katrina.

Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by mattrp on Sunday February 02, 2020 @04:53PM (#22219713)
Don’t forget William “cold cash” Jefferson, who commandeered national guard time take him back in the flood zone to get $90,0000 he had hidden in his freezer.
Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by fqye on Sunday February 02, 2020 @05:47PM (#22220016)
Intesting. Hubei provincial and Wuhan city governments are being bashed hard for covering up and ineffectiveness in handling the crisis and China’s central government is being praised.
Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by JohnJamesRambo on Sunday February 02, 2020 @04:34PM (#22219598)
I’m specifically talking about when it was obvious that state and local authorities had failed/were overwhelmed, the days and days and weeks before a useful federal response came. I’m imagining how it would go down if not one city but dozens to hundreds were affected by an asteroid or nuclear attack. I imagine total chaos.
Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by ausjke on Sunday February 02, 2020 @03:17PM (#22219154)
exactly, USA is _united_ states, crisis like Katrina really should be dealt by the local governments first-hand, with federal help on its way. it's very different from China's system, where everyone has to get approvals from the central government.
Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by rayiner on Sunday February 02, 2020 @04:57PM (#22219739)
It’s not just the federal system, but the basic nature of disaster response. Even if the EU had jurisdiction over levees in the Netherlands, it would be ridiculous to expect an EU agency to be the front line response to flooding in Amsterdam. It’s the local government that actually knows where the risks and the resources to deal with those are. The federal government can help with money, say ensuring that poor cities have the financial resources to prepare a disaster response. But the actual response has to be local.
Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by afarrell on Sunday February 02, 2020 @03:28PM (#22219216)
> really should be dealt by the local governments first-hand, with federal help on its way

Add "And some overarching flexible framework for regular coordination-practice and preparation-funding" and this seems quite clear.

Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by ausjke on Monday February 03, 2020 @11:40AM (#22225823)
for those downvoters, please educate me about your thoughts, just want to learn some other perspectives.
Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by reaperducer on Sunday February 02, 2020 @03:32PM (#22219236)
Katrina was when I realized how silly it is to think our government would ever deal effectively with a major disaster and how vulnerable we are.

Having been through three major hurricanes and 9/11, I'm not as skeptical as you. Everything is local. If the local authorities are prepared, things will go better. The feds are backup for when things get too big to handle.

Looking back, after the initial shock wore off, the on-the-street response in the hours after 9/11 was very interesting. It was clear that NYC and its neighbors have many layers of plans for major emergencies. Do they have everything covered? Probably not, which is only logical since you can't plan for the unknown. But a good deal of faith was earned that day.

Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by jariel on Sunday February 02, 2020 @03:54PM (#22219347)
"Katrina was when I realized how silly it is to think our government would ever deal effectively with a major disaster"

It's funny because the very idea that 'the government will save us from a big disaster' is a fairly new concept.

Some governments are 'kind of' prepared for some kinds of problems - i.e. the Swiss are prepared for some kinds of invasions, surely the Dutch have preparations for floods.

But for unforeseen disasters (the levy breach in New Orleans), it's harder and we're mostly on our own.

New Orleans is also very poor and is socially dysfunctional along a whole other set of vectors, I'll bet $100 it's pretty correlated with dealing with disaster. If it were some well run mid-sized city in New England it would have been another story. (Plus the possibility of racism which is to vague to consider in a paragraph).

Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by droithomme on Sunday February 02, 2020 @04:50PM (#22219694)
> for unforeseen disasters (the levy breach in New Orleans)

Credible sources, including FEMA, predicted that one years in advance.

Check out the October 2004 issue of National Geographic:

> The storm hit Breton Sound with the fury of a nuclear warhead, pushing a deadly storm surge into Lake Pontchartrain. The water crept to the top of the massive berm that holds back the lake and then spilled over. Nearly 80 percent of New Orleans lies below sea level—more than eight feet below in places—so the water poured in. A liquid brown wall washed over the brick ranch homes of Gentilly, over the clapboard houses of the Ninth Ward, over the white-columned porches of the Garden District, until it raced through the bars and strip joints on Bourbon Street like the pale rider of the Apocalypse. As it reached 25 feet (eight meters) over parts of the city, people climbed onto roofs to escape it.

> Thousands drowned in the murky brew that was soon contaminated by sewage and industrial waste. Thousands more who survived the flood later perished from dehydration and disease as they waited to be rescued. It took two months to pump the city dry, and by then the Big Easy was buried under a blanket of putrid sediment, a million people were homeless, and 50,000 were dead. It was the worst natural disaster in the history of the United States.

> When did this calamity happen? It hasn't—yet. But the doomsday scenario is not far-fetched. The Federal Emergency Management Agency lists a hurricane strike on New Orleans as one of the most dire threats to the nation, up there with a large earthquake in California or a terrorist attack on New York City. Even the Red Cross no longer opens hurricane shelters in the city, claiming the risk to its workers is too great.

Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by tim333 on Sunday February 02, 2020 @06:21PM (#22220167)
I remember watching the New Orleans breach in TV in Ireland where I was at the time and it was a bit odd - the only US news we had pretty much was CNN and that had been going on about the levys being likely to be breached about every 20 mins for the 24 to 48 hours previously. And then they breached. And then the president came on saying no one could have predicted they would be breached. Which was odd - I guess no one unless they'd turned on TV anywhere on the planet...
Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by jcranmer on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:24AM (#22221632)
Pedantically, Bush may have actually been correct: the levees failed by collapsing under the water load, whereas the concern was entirely on failing by being overtopped. In colloquial terms, people will use the term "breach" to refer to both failure modes, but these failure modes are actually quite different, and apparently the Army Corps of Engineers reserved "breach" to mean only the first one.

On the other hand, I'm not really willing to give Bush much credit here. The middle of a disaster is not the right time for pedantry.

Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by jariel on Sunday February 02, 2020 @08:38PM (#22220767)
Yes, but with the levees, the cost is massive. It's one thing to say 'there will be a big earthquake' and put together operational plans, do some practice runs. With the levees it might be many billions in upgrades for a 'risk', meaning, it gets postponed until it gets politically untenable to do nothing.
Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by unishark on Sunday February 02, 2020 @04:32PM (#22219588)
In fact the levees were designed to survive a Katrina-sized storm, but of course never had to prove they could, until they failed. What's also funny is for a bunch of engineers and software developers to expect the govt to enact a system that is impossible to really test, and just have it work smoothly when needed.

Rich cities in california were also a dysfunctional mess dealing with fires. It was only when the same problem happened in the same places in subsequent years that they had a reasonably solid plan together and working.

Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by btilly on Sunday February 02, 2020 @07:35PM (#22220502)
In fact the levees were designed to survive a Katrina-sized storm, but of course never had to prove they could, until they failed.

They were not, and the fact was well-known in advance. Their limit was a category 3 hurricane and there had been years of passing the buck about upgrading the levees to give the city a shot.

Then Katrina happened and everyone who had passed the buck claimed that it wasn't their fault.

Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by unishark on Sunday February 02, 2020 @07:42PM (#22220527)
Katrina was actually weakened to category 3 when it hit new Orleans. They should have lucked out (yet again) if the levees performed as they were supposed to.
Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by selimthegrim on Sunday February 02, 2020 @10:49PM (#22221285)
Design of the levee was Army Corps/Federal responsibility and maintenance was the local one.
Re:China to inject $174B of liquidity on Monday as markets r... by malandrew on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:05PM (#22221346)
It's pretty silly to think any government can deal effectively with a major disaster. At the end of the day, the best way to address a major disaster is with both a government response and a prepared citizenry. Centralized support to a decentralized response is way more effective.

There isn't much centralized support can do when it is overwhelmed and the citizens at a local level are helpless/useless.

Learn first aid skills. Learn amateur radio for communication. Have backup water, food and fuel.