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Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by pdonis on Thursday January 30, 2020 @06:27PM (#22197133)
> governments are the least-worst solution

No, they're not, because while externalities and other forms of misaligned incentives are departures from the norm in free markets, they are the norm in governments.

Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by arrosenberg on Thursday January 30, 2020 @06:37PM (#22197223)
> No, they're not, because while externalities and other forms of misaligned incentives are departures from the norm in free markets, they are the norm in governments.

How do you figure? A totally free market results in monopolies, which are rife with externalities that exist for the purpose of maintaining the monopoly. Government is the body responsible for balancing and managing those negative factors against the desirable results being produced.

Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by pdonis on Thursday January 30, 2020 @07:54PM (#22197841)
> A totally free market results in monopolies

In cases where there is a natural monopoly (because economies of scale outweigh the deadweight costs of a larger firm), yes. Historically such cases are rare. Most historical cases of monopoly are due to government interference, not free markets. Indeed, the word "monopoly" originally meant a government-granted exclusive right to sell some particular good or service.

Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by arrosenberg on Thursday January 30, 2020 @10:17PM (#22198699)
I'm not completely sure about the etymology of the word, but I do know that in the US, most monopolies were not government granted. They were achieved through aggressive M&A, market manipulation, and other abusive practices (much of which should be seen as a negative externality on the affected human communities). That is exactly why the government was granted significant power to restrain concentrated entities from committing these abuses.
Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by barry-cotter on Friday January 31, 2020 @12:01AM (#22199213)
This isn’t true. The only industry I’m aware of that might actually be a natural monopoly, as in the efficient number of companies is one, is aircraft manufacturing. Local utilities aren’t natural monopolies, cable isn’t a natural monopoly, water, gas, electricity, these definitely aren’t natural monopolies.

If manufacturing semiconductors, with fabs that cost tens of billions of dollars isn’t a natural monopoly, why do we think anything is?

> The Myth ofNatural Monopoly Thomas J. DiLorenzo

> It is a myth that natural monopoly theory was developed first by economists, and then used by legislators to "justify" franchise monopolies. The truth is that the monopolies were created decades before the theory was formalized by intervention-minded economists, who then used the theory as an ex post rationale for government intervention. At the time when the first government franchise monopolies were being granted, the large majority of economists understood that large-scale, capital intensive production did not lead to monopoly, but was an absolutely desirable aspect of the competitive process.

https://cdn.mises.org/rae9_2_3_3.pdf

Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by scarface74 on Friday January 31, 2020 @12:20AM (#22199298)
Local utilities aren’t natural monopolies, cable isn’t a natural monopoly, water, gas, electricity, these definitely aren’t natural monopolies.

How are utilities not a natural monopoly? The cost and disruption of building infrastructure to serve everyone is definitely a monopoly. Do you really want four or five companies digging up streets and building pipes, wires, etc?

Also, if you had multiple companies competing, they would only serve the most profitable customers who live in the most dense areas. You see that now with internet providers - especially fiber.

Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by barry-cotter on Friday January 31, 2020 @07:43AM (#22201148)
Please consider reading the linked article.

Utilities are not a natural monopoly because we have multiple examples of competition lasting decades in municipalities. This is not compatible with the economic concept of natural monopoly. It’s a disproof by existence.

If you want to discourage too much digging up the street charge people to do it. If they’re doing too much charge more. Problem solved; the various companies that want to dig up will come to a mutually agreeable arrangement on cost sharing if they want to dig up the street.

Multiple competing companies going after the most profitable customers is very much not proof of the existence of natural monopoly. It’s also perfectly fine. If you want uneconomic customers served for reasons of equity pay for it. You can either pay for it directly and make the costs visible or you can mandate universal service and spread the costs across all customers. Either way the cost is paid; you don’t get anything for free.

Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by scarface74 on Friday January 31, 2020 @08:27AM (#22201457)
We have multiple examples in the 1920’s in large dense cities...

And as far as what happens when you let multiple companies dig up the streets that are willing to pay for it, we also have an example of what happens when a company decides to abandon an area when it’s not profitable and leaves the infrastructure and the streets in a mess. Google Fiber and shallow trenching....

https://www.cnet.com/news/google-fibers-secret-weapon-in-its...

What do you think is going to happen when these companies go out of business? Are we now also going to have multiple companies serving the last mile? What happens at the last mile when your water company goes out of business? How long will it take a competitor to get to your home?

Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by pdonis on Friday January 31, 2020 @12:32AM (#22199364)
> How are utilities not a natural monopoly?

Water, sewer, and storm drain, yes, that's a plausible natural monopoly. Electrical power, telephone, and internet, no. At most the conduits that the cables have to go through could be a natural monopoly, but not the services themselves.

> if you had multiple companies competing, they would only serve the most profitable customers who live in the most dense areas. You see that now with internet providers - especially fiber

This could be an argument for individual municipalities building their own infrastructure, owning it, and leasing it to service providers like ISPs.

It is not an argument for what we actually have in the US, which is higher-level governments giving monopolies to private companies, and those private companies successfully suing individual municipalities that try to build their own infrastructure, own it, and lease it to service providers.

Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by scarface74 on Friday January 31, 2020 @09:10AM (#22201755)
So instead of having a private monopoly on infrastructure where politicians tell the private monopoly what to do. Now we have a public monopoly where we have the politicians controlling it directly.

There is historical precedent for internet providers competing for internet over a common infrastructure. That use to be required for DSL. None of the companies were profitable. Locally there was MindSpring and Telestream among others that both tried.

Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by pdonis on Friday January 31, 2020 @12:28AM (#22199336)
> in the US, most monopolies were not government granted

Railroads: government granted.

Public utilities: government granted.

Telephone: government granted.

Air travel: government granted.

Cable TV: goverment granted.

ISP: government granted.

Seems like a lot.

Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by arrosenberg on Friday January 31, 2020 @12:54AM (#22199440)
It seems like the common factor enforcing the monopoly is high capital cost as a barrier to entry. That moat allows monopolizing companies to focus their resources on capturing the state to maintain their monopoly status.

The remedy would seem to be for more decisive government action - to regulate or nationalize the infrastructure, break up the incumbents as necessary, and create a robust market for services that utilize the infrastructure and pay rents and taxes to the government.

Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by kortilla on Friday January 31, 2020 @03:09AM (#22199962)
Or strip the government of its power to enable monopolies in the first place.
Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by arrosenberg on Friday January 31, 2020 @11:46AM (#22203095)
We've already seen that show. SPOILER: The government didn't create these monopolies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Securities_Company

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil

My condolences for your narrative.

Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by kortilla on Saturday February 01, 2020 @04:28AM (#22209616)
I recommend you read the section from the Standard Oil article on the criticism of the breakup.

Also, your rebuke is pretty weak if you have one example compared to the thousands of government granted monopolies all over the US.

Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by pdonis on Friday January 31, 2020 @10:27AM (#22202423)
Exactly.
Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by veeralpatel979 on Thursday January 30, 2020 @06:57PM (#22197387)
> A totally free market results in monopolies, which are rife with externalities that exist for the purpose of maintaining the monopoly.

I'd have to disagree. Not many markets have monopolies - where you only have one firm in the market. Tech is an exception.

In fact, I'd say that many government policies, while necessary, are a major contributor to monopolies, by imposing high costs to enter markets.

Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by arrosenberg on Thursday January 30, 2020 @10:21PM (#22198722)
That discounts history far too much. We have more competitive markets today because of antitrust regulation passed over 100 years ago and vigorously enforced up through the 90s. Tech would be more competitive today if the DOJ had completed the Microsoft prosecution instead of settling.

Our markets are becoming less competitive today because of government action due to regulatory capture - the intentional weakening of the regulatory state from within. We need more powerful, dedicated regulators in order to maintain competitive, free markets.

Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by gzer0 on Thursday January 30, 2020 @07:19PM (#22197568)
Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by pdonis on Thursday January 30, 2020 @07:57PM (#22197858)
Yes, Standard Oil, whose major "crime" was selling oil more cheaply than all of its competitors.
Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by gzer0 on Friday January 31, 2020 @02:57AM (#22199918)
Standard raised prices to its monopolistic customers but lowered them to hurt competitors, often disguising its illegal actions by using bogus supposedly independent companies it controlled [1].

The evidence is, in fact, absolutely conclusive that the Standard Oil Co. charges altogether excessive prices where it meets no competition, and particularly where there is little likelihood of competitors entering the field, and that, on the other hand, where competition is active, it frequently cuts prices to a point which leaves even the Standard little or no profit, and which more often leaves no profit to the competitor, whose costs are ordinarily somewhat higher [2].

[1]. Grayson, Leslie E. (1987). Who and How in Planning for Large Companies: Generalizations from the Experiences of Oil Companies.

[2]. Standard Oil Co. of New Jersey v. United States, 221 U.S. 1 (1911).

Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by kortilla on Friday January 31, 2020 @03:11AM (#22199966)
As if price discrimination isn’t a practice used commonly today.
Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by gzer0 on Friday January 31, 2020 @04:34AM (#22200306)
I'm unsure what point you are trying to make here?

That the practices conducted by Standard Oil were considered acceptable?

Or are you stating that because it is done today (wrongfully so, imo), it was okay back then?

Please elaborate.

Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by kortilla on Saturday February 01, 2020 @04:25AM (#22209608)
Price discrimination isn’t really a problem. Companies do it all the time with coupons, origin of purchaser, etc. What your comment doesn’t show is why it was bad when standard oil did it.
Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by gzer0 on Saturday February 01, 2020 @11:24PM (#22215117)
Your comment, seems to be missing a lot more: a coherent series of reasons, statements, or facts intended to support or establish a point of view
Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by kortilla on Sunday February 02, 2020 @01:11AM (#22215457)
Wow, super childish. Anyway, the point I was making is that all you managed to show was that standard oil practiced price discrimination as if it was some big revelation. Then I pointed out how it happens to a vast extent every day and it’s part of modern markets and you have nothing in response to defend your stance on price discrimination.

My guess is you just found out that coupons are price discrimination and are still pretty upset about that? If so, I’m sorry to break that news to you.

Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by gzer0 on Sunday February 02, 2020 @01:38PM (#22218497)
> Then I pointed out how it happens to a vast extent every day and it’s part of modern markets and you have nothing in response to defend your stance on price discrimination.

Back this up. None of your statements have any backing.

Edit: From your comment style and prior history, you have a history of utilizing red herring and slippery slope style comments to get your way without backing a single thing you say. Please, cut the bullshit.

Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by kortilla on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @02:05AM (#22233141)
Back what up? Grocery stores send out thousands of coupons every day in the regular mail. Coupons are price discrimination plain and simple. I’m honestly not sure what you need me to provide to show you how coupons work.

Grocery stores getting more sophisticated: https://www.forbes.com/sites/moneybuilder/2012/08/21/individ...

Here’s airlines: http://theconversation.com/a-travellers-guide-to-airline-pri...

There’s a bunch of examples right in the fucking wiki page on price discrimination: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination

Please spend a little effort at least googling before you make demands for proof of something so common.

> From your comment style and prior history

That’s just pathetic. Nobody is ever impressed you read someone else’s comment history to make a childlike ad hominem attack, especially just to misuse the term “red herring”. Stalking has ever advanced a conversation. Stick to the topic.

Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by veeralpatel979 on Friday January 31, 2020 @03:02AM (#22199940)
Didn't they collude with railroads?
Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by barry-cotter on Friday January 31, 2020 @12:03AM (#22199218)
Don’t forget constantly increasing quality as well as falling prices.
Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by paulgb on Thursday January 30, 2020 @06:38PM (#22197228)
It took governments less time to fix the Ozone hole (remember the Montreal Protocol?) than it took for the free market to converge on one type of phone charger that works on multiple devices.

Unfettered faith in free markets and unfettered faith in governments are equally bad things.

Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by yyyk on Thursday January 30, 2020 @07:40PM (#22197718)
CFC emissions took some time to subside after the Montreal Protocol. We also know there's a current Chinese source[0] which is still emitting CFCs in 2019. So I dunno if 'governments' have the advantage on that one.

[0] https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-48353341

Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by manicpolymath on Thursday January 30, 2020 @06:48PM (#22197308)
Wasn’t the phone charger convergence driven by an EU mandate though?
Re:California's housing bill SB 50 has died in the state Senate by scarface74 on Friday January 31, 2020 @12:22AM (#22199310)
And by the time the government mandated a standard charger, the tech world was moving on to a better standard -- USB C.