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Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by amluto on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:18AM (#22182170)
This suggests that something is very wrong with the market. The costs of development and production (even ignoring failures) are way below revenue, which means that return on capital should be very positive. Somehow most of the money is going into overhead. One might debate whether the overhead constitutes corruption, but it should be able to be reduced.
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by ikeboy on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:23AM (#22182237)
When it costs billions to develop a new drug due to onerous testing regulations, that's what happens.

Ultimately returns in every industry tend towards zero. If we made it cheaper to develop new drugs it would extend the lifespan of the industry somewhat but not indefinitely. At some point diminishing returns take over and investment must go down.

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by mumblemumble on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:47AM (#22182601)
Given that closer research is finding that a lot of popular drugs and treatments actually do more harm than good, I don't think it's so easy to characterize the current testing regulations as onerous.

The current regime in the USA didn't happen for nothing. It's well-known now that pharma companies had long been exploiting the file drawer effect and p-hacking to inflate the apparent safety and efficacy of their drugs in their FDA filings. The decision a couple decades ago to cut that off did dramatically reduce the rate at which drugs win approval, and that's a very good thing.

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by ikeboy on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:50AM (#22182643)
https://www.fdareview.org/issues/theory-evidence-and-example...

This provides what to me is compelling evidence that the efficacy requirement by the FDA is wasteful.

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by UnFleshedOne on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @12:37PM (#22183355)
> Thus, he concluded, “(the) penalties imposed by the marketplace on sellers of ineffective drugs prior to 1962 seem to have been enough of a deterrent to have left little room for improvement by a regulatory agency”

Amount of homeotherapy currently on the shelves bring "penalties imposed by the marketplace on sellers of ineffective drugs" into a sharp contrast... People will take pure water if you tell them it works.

EDIT: But I suppose a complex measure of: removing efficacy requirements AND banning advertising to both consumers and doctors AND mandating pre-regisration of trials might lead to more drugs on the market with companies using efficacy trials to compete with each other and doctors selecting best drugs based on cost/benefit/harm analysis.

I'm sure there are loopholes that would be promptly exploited in this scheme given enough incentive though.

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by a1369209993 on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @01:10PM (#22183829)
> People will take pure water if you tell them it works.

To be fair, if you tell them it works, people will take pure water and show noticable improvments over non-treatment. Personally I just take the placebo effect directly though.

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by slowhand09 on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @01:11PM (#22183842)
I concur with this completely. Disclosure: I was a contract IT worker at FDA.
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by nradov on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:44AM (#22182569)
The testing regulations are not onerous. They are necessary to ensure that new medications are both safe and effective.

I often see vague complaints about the regulations, but no one seems to have specific suggestions about how to lower drug development costs while still protecting patients.

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by ikeboy on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:51AM (#22182663)
https://www.fdareview.org/issues/theory-evidence-and-example...

Specific suggestion: get rid of efficacy requirement, keep safety requirement. Let doctors decide what works, as they currently do for off-label uses just fine.

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @01:37PM (#22184206)
For many medicines, you really can't separate efficacy from safety. As an extreme case, take for example cancer drugs. They typically have high side effects and every year, a certain proportion of the people taking them, die from the side effects. That is an acceptable risk because there is evidence that they are efficacious in treating cancer. If they are not efficacious, that is a completely unacceptable risk.

Less extreme are antibiotics which can also have bad side effects, but are useful drugs because they actually kill bacteria. If they did not, the side effects would be unacceptable.

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by ikeboy on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @01:42PM (#22184268)
Should a doctor be making that decision, or should the government?

Or should the government make that decision for on-label uses and doctors make that decision for off-label uses? That's the status quo. Whatever argument you have for one half of that is an argument against the other half.

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by dreae on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @02:13PM (#22184625)
Are you suggesting when a new drug hits the market doctors should just try it out on a few patients to see if actually does what it says it does? If only there was some way this sort of trial and error could be performed before a drug was widely available, in a controlled environment...
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by ikeboy on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @02:21PM (#22184718)
" If only there was some way this sort of trial and error could be performed before a drug was widely available, in a controlled environment..."

This is exactly how doctors determine what works, with or without the government. See the off-label discussion in the link above.

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by dreae on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @02:33PM (#22184850)
I'm familiar with the off-label discussion, but what number of these off-label uses were discovered by treating coinciding conditions in patients? How many were last ditch attempts when other treatment options either don't exist or failed?

I'm not suggesting that current regulation by the FDA isn't flawed, or that it doesn't need an overhaul, but I think it's clear that there should be some proof that efficacy studies were done before a drug becomes widely available, especially when the potential damage done by a failed treatment is so high. The current opioid crisis has completely eroded any faith that the pharmaceutical industry is capable or willing to regulate itself.

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by cat199 on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @12:48PM (#22183525)
so, in effect, subsidize pharma via selling placebo effect?
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by ikeboy on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @12:51PM (#22183568)
No.
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by mrnobody_67 on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @01:07PM (#22183783)
Actually they are ineffective.

Tons of drugs have been approved, only to be later pulled off the shelves. So despite the massive cost, delays, etc. the process has failed at least 35 (!) times:

https://prescriptiondrugs.procon.org/fda-approved-prescripti...

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by nradov on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @01:31PM (#22184129)
Actually they are effective, and have been made even more effective after the recent drug recalls. If the regulations were looser then there would have been even more recalls. Therefore your argument is illogical.
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by ikeboy on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @03:07PM (#22185208)
That page says it's about drugs withdrawn for safety concerns. That's different from the typical complaint, which is efficacy trials that are overly expensive.
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:26AM (#22182281)
How much is spent on marketing in comparison? Only in the US and New Zealand can you market drugs directly to the public. I sense an opportunity to destroy an unnecessary cost.
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by rayiner on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @01:44PM (#22184300)
$6 billion for direct to consumer marketing. Versus $71 billion in R&D.
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @02:36PM (#22184874)
8 percent is not insignificant IMHO. Appreciate the legwork to post this.
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by ikeboy on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:29AM (#22182329)
If you believe the market is choosing to waste money on ineffective marketing, sure. Do you have any particular reason to think that? Why would you expect return on capital to go up without marketing?
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by MiroF on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:43AM (#22182549)
Unnecessary from a benefit to society perspective - the marketing might be very effective for them but that is besides the point.

If nobody is marketing, that definitely might increase return on capital.

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by asdfasgasdgasdg on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @12:12PM (#22182994)
The marketing may be effective and still unnecessary. For example, consider a simified world model where drug A and drug B are identical, and are the two widely known solutions to a given condition. In a world where no marketing is done, people with the condition will randomly buy A or B, with roughly a 50% chance of either outcome, assuming they cost the same amount. In a world where A spends half their revenue on marketing, people start buying A more than B. If B responds by also spending $50 on marketing, we go back to the world where each is purchased roughly equally, but now the marketing budget has to come out of the pocket of either the company owners or drug purchasers.

If you pass a law banning drug marketing, you may be able to get the same health outcomes with less overhead. Of course, this ignores all the hypothetical cases where marketing helps, like increasing awareness of a beneficial treatment that was not previously well known.

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by jogjayr on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:59AM (#22182802)
You only need one participant in the market to start advertising and seeing profits, and then everyone else has to follow suit. Collectively the money may still be wasted because no one's relative market position changes very much.
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by jessaustin on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @12:29PM (#22183249)
As much as the erection drug ads annoy me, this argument may prove too much... It may be that humans would be happier and the economy more efficient if all marketing were outlawed?
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by ceejayoz on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:29AM (#22182323)
> When it costs billions to develop a new drug due to onerous testing regulations, that's what happens.

This does not explain the increase in cost of insulin, which was invented in 1923.

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by ikeboy on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:32AM (#22182375)
You can buy the formulation that was invented in 1923 for cheap.

It's newer formulations that are expensive, and those are still protected by patents.

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by opencl on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:41AM (#22182522)
Insulin is a great example of abuse of the patent system. The original patents for all of the major modern insulin formulations expired years ago, but the manufactures filed new patents years and even decades after the products had already been on the market to extend patent protection from 20 years to 30+.
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by djpowell on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @12:59PM (#22183668)
The NHS pays £14 - £28 a vial for those newer formulations.
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by ikeboy on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @01:02PM (#22183730)
Good for them. Maybe if we fixed the patent system (government enforced monopoly) we'd be in a similar position.
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by ceejayoz on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @01:32PM (#22184153)
The UK has a patent system.
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by topspin on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @01:04PM (#22183746)
That just raises more questions. Are these "newer formulations" a meaningful improvement over everything else (in particular those for which patents have expired) created during the past 97 years, as opposed to ploys to maintain IP? The tactic involved here is using regulatory capture, near monopoly control of supply and IP law to limit what is available for prescription use to expensive products.
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by djpowell on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @01:24PM (#22184027)
Mostly, yes. The newer insulins (well they've been around for 20 years) have molecules which are engineered be faster acting so that they reduce peaks in blood sugar after meals; or longer lasting, so they can provide a more predictable background coverage.
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by ceejayoz on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:35AM (#22182422)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_insulin

> In the United Kingdom 1,000 iu costs the NHS £7.48, while in the United States this amount is about $134.00.

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by ikeboy on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:47AM (#22182600)
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by anonuser123456 on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:34AM (#22182395)
Not the same insulin.
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:20AM (#22182186)
I don’t demand my roads, libraries, or other public goods turn a profit. I wouldn’t demand the same of public pharma research (NIH, DARPA).

Perhaps the market is not designed for this sort of endeavor (drug research). Let government stand in where the market has failed.

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by rayiner on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:36AM (#22182435)
Except the market has succeeded fantastically. In my lifetime alone, AIDS and HepC went from death sentences to chronic conditions. Many forms of leukemia went from fatal to highly treatable.

Meanwhile, what has the government done? The trip from DC to New York on Amtrak is slower today than it was in 1960. In 1980, DC’s Metro had self driving trains. They had to shut that down in 2009 due to lack of maintenance and the unions. Spending on public education, adjusted for inflation, per student since 1960. But achievement hasn’t budged one inch. If the drug industry has failed, what words are in the English language for what the government has done?

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by bildung on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @12:51PM (#22183561)
> Except the market has succeeded fantastically. In my lifetime alone, AIDS and HepC went from death sentences to chronic conditions. Many forms of leukemia went from fatal to highly treatable.

Meanwhile, what has the government done?

Exactly that: "NIH funded the majority of support for HIV/AIDS, infectious disease and oncology research." https://www.thebalance.com/who-funds-biomedical-research-266...

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by learc83 on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @12:19PM (#22183108)
Of course you can find examples of where the private sector outperforms government. And I can provide counter examples. I just moved to a much smaller city (in the same region) with gigabit municipal internet. For the same price that I was paying comcast for 50 mbps internet, I now have 20 times the speed with no data caps.

The market works great until it doesn't. The interstate system, and the military are 2 prime examples where the market is never going to provide a solution. Affordable medical care for everyone is another.

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by rayiner on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @12:54PM (#22183608)
I’m not just giving examples. Education and infrastructure are two of the big pillars of why we have government in the first place, and US government bodies have failed miserably on both fronts despite enormous funding.

As to municipal internet—its great until it’s not. Maryland has municipal cable systems that were built a couple of decades ago, and they have struggled to keep up with the DOCSIS upgrade treadmill. Additionally, what problems exist with broadband in the US are largely government created. Comcast has no data caps almost everywhere in Maryland, because it’s in competition with Verizon. The only place that’s not true is Baltimore—where the city legally prevented Verizon from coming in and competing with Comcast. Verizon wanted to wire up Baltimore—the city wouldn’t allow it to do so.

Speaking more generally, DC Metro was snazzy at first too, but was unable to maintain the system long term. It’s interesting you focus on the price point: is $50 sustainable? Charging too little is actually a big problem. A subway ticket in London can cost 2-3x as much as one in New York, despite the two systems being very similar in age and size. Unsurprisingly, the London subway is doing fine and the New York subway is falling apart.

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by vkou on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @01:54PM (#22184407)
> I’m not just giving examples. Education and infrastructure are two of the big pillars of why we have government in the first place, and US government bodies have failed miserably on both fronts despite enormous funding.

I would posit that the only thing that is a bigger failure than the public school system, is the private school system.

It's numbers look good, but that's largely because private schools are more expensive, and also opt out of educating problem students.

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by mmhsieh on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:59AM (#22182810)
there is a distribution of talent in the government as there is in a private enterprise. the talent is distributed as much across functions as within them. where government "chooses" to be excellent, it is. such pockets of excellence are nurtured by funding, top cover and insulation from the inefficient and less competent parts of government. if policymakers wanted to create an enclave of excellence in public pharma, it could. if.
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by ska on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @02:39PM (#22184916)
I'll just note that there is a false dichotomy here, because it is impossible to separate government funding and policy from most pharma and biomedical developments. They continue to do much of the heavy lifting, and there is no model really for doing it at all privately.
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by cat199 on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @12:53PM (#22183594)
> The trip from DC to New York on Amtrak is slower today than it was in 1960.

serious question - does a profitable private passenger railroad company that actually owns/maintains tracks, stations, etc exist without subsidies anywhere at all in the world? And Amtrak itself is nominally public-private and was formed in reaction to purely private railroads collapsing..

> In 1980, DC’s Metro had self driving trains. They had to shut that down in 2009 due to lack of maintenance and the unions.

even if the trains were self driving, for the 10y or so I lived there before this, there was still a conductor, so not sure if this is really a good argument..

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by rayiner on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @01:03PM (#22183738)
> serious question - does a profitable private passenger railroad company that actually owns/maintains tracks, stations, etc exist without subsidies anywhere at all in the world?

Hong Kong, Japan. But my point is narrower than that. I’m not saying governments in general cannot run decent train service. I’m saying Americans cannot. We’re culturally defective in that respect.

> even if the trains were self driving, for the 10y or so I lived there before this, there was still a conductor, so not sure if this is really a good argument..

They had a conductor for safety. But the self driving trains made the ride very smooth and allowed tighter headways. Even after 10 years, Metro conductors cannot properly stop at stations. To avoid overshooting the platform, they stop way short, and then jerkily inch into position. When I was growing up, headways on the orange line were 6 minutes and the WMATA trip planner was accurate. Today, it’s 8 minutes, because they can’t sustain the 6 minute headways. And they had to revise the trip planner a few years ago to increase the predicted travel time between stations. If you look at Metro advertising from the 1980s, station to station trip times today are 30-50% longer.

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by selimthegrim on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @12:24PM (#22183163)
How was that market motivated? Did private companies take a leading role in AZT or Sovaldi research (I’m talking about the origins of Sovaldi not the efficacy studies and packaging)
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by fjp on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:30AM (#22182342)
"Markets" are poorly designed for health care/research investment in general. Just like roads, education, general science research, etc... It just doesn't play well with being largely run with a profit motive.

That's not to say there's on place for the private sector there, but there is massive friction between a profit motive in drug research and you know, building a more healthy society. See the "new Adderalls" like Vyvanse that offer no benefits over Adderall, but Adderall's patent is up so it can be made by generics and isn't as profitable anymore.

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by zip1234 on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @12:02PM (#22182863)
Competition is what drives down costs in a market. If costs are going out of control, perhaps there is something in the current system that is preventing competition? Lack of price transparency?
Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by fjp on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @04:07PM (#22185834)
Lack of price transparency is an issue. There's waaay too many misdirections and misaligned incentives between the price a consumer pays for a drug and the manufacturer's pricing.

But again, market-based solutions are just not appropriate for essential health care. You would pay ANYTHING to not die - there's no price elasticity of demand.

Every other developed country has figured out that this is simply immoral.

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by conanbatt on Thursday January 30, 2020 @01:55AM (#22189461)
Competition drives down profits, not necessarily costs. If you passed a law that funds pharma startups to produce drugs, you would reduce profits and increase costs (through taxes).

Cost goes down with increased productivity. Competition sometimes brings that, sometimes it doesn't.

Economics can be complex!

Re:Illinois governor signs law capping insulin costs at $100... by learc83 on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:31AM (#22182355)
As long as we have effective monopolies on new drugs, (either through patents or trade secrets) the market cannot function to drive down prices. I don't know why people like to pretend that it can. Life saving drugs are as close to perfectly price inelastic as you can get assuming no competition.