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Re:The Positive Side of Shame by stared on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @03:14PM (#22173586)
> Shame was how I learned to behave when I was a child, it was my parents' go-to method

I've heard quite a few times (especially for older generations) that one learned to behave well because their parent beat them. I was raised in a guilt (rather than shame)-driven culture (Catholic), and well, while this is effective, it takes decades to undo the damage.

> It's also highly preferable to violence.

And my point is, that shame is a form of violence (not all violence is physical). Yes, it can be justified on occasions. If you dislike the word violence (in this context), then consider intentionally making someone suffer.

For using shames, when it hurts beyond proportions, "How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life" (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-t...) is worth reading.

Re:The Positive Side of Shame by leftyted on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @03:23PM (#22173661)
> And my point is, that shame is a form of violence (not all violence is physical). Yes, it can be justified on occasions. If you dislike the word violence (in this context), then consider *intentionally making someone suffer".

All violence is physical. Metaphorically speaking of shame as violent is an attempt to make shame sound inexcusable when, in reality, shame is necessary.

I don't think it's possible to do a good job raising a child without intentionally making them suffer in order to teach them things. The issue is making someone suffer more than is necessary or making them suffer for the wrong reasons. The suffering part isn't the problem.

Re:The Positive Side of Shame by maxduckworth on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @03:30PM (#22173728)
Definition of violence 1a: the use of physical force so as to injure, abuse, damage, or destroy b: an instance of violent treatment or procedure 2: injury by or as if by distortion, infringement, or profanation : OUTRAGE 3a: intense, turbulent, or furious and often destructive action or force the violence of the storm b: vehement feeling or expression : FERVOR also : an instance of such action or feeling c: a clashing or jarring quality : DISCORDANCE 4: undue alteration (as of wording or sense in editing a text)
Re:The Positive Side of Shame by leftyted on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @03:36PM (#22173778)
1a is the definition of violence.

The other definitions are metaphors.

Re:The Positive Side of Shame by maxduckworth on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @05:01PM (#22174561)
> The issue is making someone suffer more than is necessary or making them suffer for the wrong reasons

Agreed. I just think that most people would call causing suffering more than is necessary and for the wrong reasons "violent".

If not "violent", what would you call a shame based intervention that causes unnecessary suffering or is done for the wrong reasons?

Re:The Positive Side of Shame by AstralStorm on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @04:20AM (#22178780)
Just call it evil and wrong.

(It is in almost all ethical and moral systems.)

You can also call it immoral and a few other adjectives.

And for added irony, it should also be shameful.