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Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by kyriakos on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:10PM (#22171358)
If user base on those platforms is very small then it makes no sense for the developers to spend resources to keep it updated. At the end of the day its about demand and supply.
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by reaperducer on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:35PM (#22171674)
If user base on those platforms is very small then it makes no sense for the developers to spend resources to keep it updated. At the end of the day its about demand and supply.

That's only if your business model only looks at the next quarter, and if you don't care about your brand.

Amazon, and department stores before it, became huge because they made an effort to cater to all needs. That allowed them to be the go-to brands for people looking for things.

Imagine if in its early days Amazon ran the numbers and discovered that textbooks were only a small portion of its sales, so it stopped selling textbooks. Then it noticed that cookbooks were only a small part of sales, and those were cut. Then it noticed that mysteries were only a small part of sales, so they went out the window. Next thing you know, nobody shops at Amazon because its focus on the big numbers turned it into a niche provider.

If a games publisher chooses to restrict its platforms, that's its business. But I won't think of it for "games" in general when I want to find a game.

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by alxlaz on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @02:09PM (#22172950)
I love... well, ok, I use Linux, and I've been using it for almost 20 years now. A lot of the software I write to earn my living runs on embedded Linux systems. And still I'd rather poke my eyes out with a toothpick than port, or write, a game for Linux, targeting general hardware. If I owned or managed a game studio, I'd keep on using Linux, but I wouldn't publish a Linux game for the life of me, not with things being the way they are now.

If Linux were just a niche platform, that would be fine. But supporting desktop Linux systems is disproportionately difficult -- it's a small niche, but it's a lot of effort. Userland APIs break all the time. The constant churn in the graphics and desktop space leads to a lot of instability and bug reports. Between Wayland being default on some distributions, unstable graphics drivers, and the umpteenth rewrite of God knows what other component in Gnome or KDE, you get to deal with the sort of bug reports and crash dumps that used to pop up fifteen years ago when a Longhorn beta was leaked and everyone tried to run their games on it for shits and giggles. Linux desktop is basically a neverending beta. People don't write games (or software) for it for the same reason why you don't write games for a leaked Windows beta.

It's no coincidence that Linux is such a big player in the embedded and server markets, but not in the desktop market. Writing desktop software for Linux in 2020 is about as enjoyable as chewing nails. It's an unstable and flimsy platform to target, and not a very profitable one, either. I can't blame any company for skipping it.

Edit: someone else posted this here and yep, it's spot on: https://twitter.com/bgolus/status/1080213166116597760 .

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by cosmiccatnap on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @08:01PM (#22176057)
It's nice that you have embedded experience but as long as you don't write in directX there is no difference between game development among these platforms except for the massive black box of strange stuff that is the windows API. I would take the Linux API any day over that for basic I/O and most drivers are baked in. There is a reason all consoles historically besides xbox are made in top of a stripped Linux kernel.
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by alxlaz on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @03:41AM (#22178591)
That's absolutely not the case!

First of all, there's no "Linux API". The kernel does expose a stable interface but you're not going to write a game just by issuing system calls.

But the kernel is pretty much the only piece of this tech stack that exposes a stable interface. Pretty much everything else changes a lot. There are exceptions -- SDL2, for example, is great to write against. But most things aren't -- they change a lot, and they're undocumented. This tends to result in duplicate code that goes out of date and results in all sorts of strange quirks and bugs. phk has a good summary of this here: https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2349257 .

As for drivers: there's one set of drivers that aren't baked in and they're critical for games, namely nvidia drivers. Anyone who's done graphics programming on Linux has their own horror stories about nvidia's stack. I won't bore you with my own, suffice to say that things are never, ever as easy as "you just write against the OpenGL API and you're set".

"Historically", I'm not aware of any major console that's built on top of a stripped Linux kernel. Sony has been using their own franken-BSD since at least the PS3. Don't know about Nintendo but given how much effort has gone into the occasional port for Nintendo hardware, I doubt they're using Linux.

Linux has been only recently adopted by some console devices, and those are basically embedded systems. You target a single hardware platform (with a single, known set of quirks), a stable kernel, a stable driver, a stable set of userland libs. It's not great -- backporting kernel fixes is notoriously finicky, for example. But it's a scheme that, at the very least, allows you to write code to implement whatever functionality you want to implement, instead of wasting time impedance-matching between userland APIs.

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by Kapura on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:48PM (#22171875)
Amazon dot com and building a game are so different that it is difficult to follow the metaphor to any place where it offers insight. The reality is that it costs money to support any gaming platform. The cost of supporting platforms with only a tiny number of players can easily outstrip any potential upside.

A prominent indie dev on twitter once said, of his game that has sold at least several hundred thousand copies, that only 100 people will buy your game on Linux and every single one will email you to tell you that they did. That they are technical and vocal doesn't make the playerbase any larger.

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by pier25 on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @01:03PM (#22172130)
Just look at the Steam stats. About 97% of PC players are on Windows.

https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

It's simply not a sensible economical decision to invest serious dev time for 3% of your potential players.

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by reaperducer on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @01:14PM (#22172281)
At one time, Windows was only 3% of game players. Does that mean companies shouldn't have developed for Windows way back when?

Market growth potential aside, a small portion of users doesn't necessarily equate to abandonment="sensible economical decision." If that small portion is more profitable than the majority, then it's worth serving. That's pretty much how Apple got to be where it is today.

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by tapoxi on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @01:44PM (#22172661)
> Does that mean companies shouldn't have developed for Windows way back when?

They didn't, they developed for DOS well into the Windows 95 and 98 era, at which point Windows had captured the PC market.

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by pier25 on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @02:01PM (#22172859)
> If that small portion is more profitable than the majority, then it's worth serving.

Indeed, but that's not the case with macOS and Linux players.

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by EpicEng on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @03:35PM (#22173770)
>If that small portion is more profitable than the majority, then it's worth serving.

But... it's not. Not even close. It's tiny and Linux costs far more to support due to variations in configuration and flaky APIs.

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by ThrowawayR2 on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @03:15PM (#22173594)
> "Does that mean companies shouldn't have developed for Windows way back when?"

The difference being that Microsoft went all out in building subsystems (WinG and later the various DirectX technologies) for gaming and courting game developers to target it while Windows 9x was still new and popular.

Nothing similar has occurred for any of the Linux distributions nor is that likely to occur.

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by cosmiccatnap on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @08:03PM (#22176070)
Vulken
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by EpicEng on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @01:13PM (#22172269)
>If a games publisher chooses to restrict its platforms, that's its business. But I won't think of it for "games" in general when I want to find a game.

But nearly everyone else will, so why would they care about you? No game developer has failed because they lack Linux support.

Linux has a tiny portion of the desktop market, and an evern tinier portion of would be Epic customers if only they could play their games on their preferred OS. It's not like Linux has 30% of the desktop market and people are out there demanding support. Linux support makes no sense.

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by shultays on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:48PM (#22171874)
I dont share your optimizm of linux desktop being a non minority next quarter. Or next 20 quarters
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by andonisus on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @01:13PM (#22172265)
We are not talking about Amazon, we are talking about Rocket League, which is nothing like Amazon; one is an online retailer and the other is a video game. Epic/Psyonix will be just fine. Lots of people spend money for the cosmetic items they offer.
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by UncleMeat on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @04:32PM (#22174279)
I don't believe for a second that failing to support linux is going to affect brand value. Its such a niche audience.
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by flatiron on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:11PM (#22171376)
What about switch and ps4? Are they being dropped? They don’t support direct x 11.
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by ssully on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:13PM (#22171395)
Switch and PS4 players make up more then 0.3% of their playerbase, unlike Linux and Mac Users, so they will be supported.
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by Crisco on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:23PM (#22171526)
So I have no experience in 3D graphics and very little experience in game design (I wrote a 2D game in high school but that's it), but if they are already going from DX9 to DX11 why don't they go to another library that supports all the platforms they already develop for such as Vulkan? I'd imagine that would better future-proof their game to make adapting to other platforms that are released in the future easier. So how hard would it be to go from DX to something else? As stated before, I have no experience in this area so I'm being completely sincere with my question.
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by Pfhreak on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:33PM (#22171653)
Typically a DirectX revision bump would be less work than a totally different API.

To answer "How hard could it be?", the answer is, "Surprisingly hard". Games rely on weird interactions with hardware and need to smoothly render at a consistent FPS. Often a revision bump in a library might introduce subtle changes (for example, a difference in how numbers are rounded might cause z-fighting or change the way shadows are rendered). All of those need to be discovered and fixed. Not to mention that DirectX uses a totally different shader language than Vulkan, so you have to get in there and translate all that code over.

It's definitely non-trivial. Doable, but non-trivial. I don't blame the devs for making a cost/benefit analysis and realizing they would never recoup the cost.

Given the economies of the games industry (where studios are basically always one step away from complete failure and being dissolved into nothing), I appreciate the need to focus on not losing money in this way.

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by tambre on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:41PM (#22171781)
> Not to mention that DirectX uses a totally different shader language than Vulkan, so you have to get in there and translate all that code over.

Vulkan doesn't really have a shader language unless you want to write SPIR-V assembly. Thus you'd use either GLSL or HLSL. Microsoft's own DirectX HLSL compiler[0] supports SPIR-V as a target in addition to DXIL.

[0]: https://github.com/microsoft/DirectXShaderCompiler

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by Pfhreak on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:43PM (#22171807)
Consider me corrected! I had done a quick google and saw GLSL listed in the top results and made an incorrect assumption.
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by Crisco on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @04:55PM (#22174492)
Thanks for the explanation. I guess part of why I'm confused is that they have not stated any plans to stop supporting Switch and Playstation 4 versions of the game and in my mind those are probably just as difficult to maintain as the macOS and Linux version. Do Nintendo and Sony provide support here that make it easier for Psyonix to port to their platforms, or are there just so many more players on those platforms that it is worth the investment?
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by exsf0859 on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @09:18PM (#22176546)
Switch and PS 4 are easier to support than Linux or MacOS because there's only a few hardware variations for Switch and PS 4.
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by Crisco on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @12:22AM (#22177714)
Good point! I mostly deal with embedded systems so I often forget the difficulty of maintaining a piece of software that needs to run on basically innumerable hardware and software configurations.
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by ssully on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:30PM (#22171603)
The developer has come out and said that as of the announcement of them dropping support for Mac/Linux, the two platforms combine make up 0.6% of their active player base [1]. I am guessing they just did the math and decided the cost of switching APIs to something like Vulkan is not worth it when such a small portion of their users would benefit from it.

[1]: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/rocket-league-will-dr...

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by Crisco on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @04:47PM (#22174410)
Yeah, that is completely understandable. I was just curious why they wouldn't invest in developing for a different but more cross-platform library so that maintaining Rocket League on platforms such as the Switch and Playstation 4 (as well as the future consoles from both manufacturers) would be easier. They have stated no plans to remove support from those consoles, and I don't imagine they are much easier to maintain compatibility with than macOS or Linux.
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by fsloth on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:30PM (#22171608)
As they stated, most of their players are on windows. If windows is your target market, then DirectX is generally the graphics API you want to support. You don't want to make architecture decisions because one or other approach would be untenable to below 1% of your target. Cross-platform is not a value as such.
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by cwyers on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:31PM (#22171620)
At some point, somebody needs to actually tell the hardware what to do. If you're doing 3D graphic rendering in real time, that point is probably now. There are no magical abstraction layers that can let you do performant 3D graphics without paying attention to what's going on at the API level.
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by protanopia on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:40PM (#22171751)
Rocket League is made with Unreal Engine 3 so if they wanted to port the game to using Vulkan they would also have to upgrade the game to Unreal Engine 4.
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by pandaman on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:35PM (#22171679)
Reading the article, it appears that the issue is with the supported functionality and not with the literal library. They already had been using OpenGL instead of DX9 on Mac/Linux but they cannot use it instead of DX11 because the features they need are not available in that version of OpenGL.
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by blackearl on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:17PM (#22171450)
You can substitute directx 11 support for "issues requiring X amount of employee hours" and the ratio of affected player base.
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by Impossible on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:17PM (#22171460)
The player base on PS4 and Switch is large enough to justify dedicated engineering support. Mac and Linux on Steam are not. Interesting enough iOS and Android might be big enough markets to put Mac and maybe Linux support back on the table, if they decide to make a mobile version of Rocket League. If Google threw a bunch of money at them for Stadia support Linux could come back also.
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by loudmax on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:40PM (#22171757)
By tying themselves to a single proprietary platform owned by a potential competitor, Epic is giving up control over their own product. This will certainly save them some money in the short term. In the long term, this may not turn out to be such a wise decision. But by then, the executives at Epic will probably have moved on, so not their problem.
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by polk on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @01:29PM (#22172487)
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by thethrowboat on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:54PM (#22171971)
It's strange to me that they could support linux and mac back when they were smaller, but now that epic owns them and rl generates 50M(?) per year, they can't.
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by kgwxd on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @01:47PM (#22172697)
Maybe if the cost of supporting Linux and Mac weren't so great they wouldn't have needed to sell to Epic in the first place. /s
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by itake on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:16PM (#22171439)
From what I understand, they also removed key features (like multiplayer) for people that have already paid for the app. They will not be getting refunds for in-app purchases.
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by Guillaume86 on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:21PM (#22171510)
Multiplayer requires latest version, so no getting updates results in losing multiplayer. I agree refunds would be a decent move given that multiplayer is the main selling point of the game though.
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by kevingadd on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @02:04PM (#22172894)
It's unrealistic to continue supporting multiplayer if you're not updating the client anymore. It'd mean you could never make changes.
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by itake on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @04:46PM (#22174403)
I think you're missing the problem for the consumer.

If I bought that game, because it means I could play multiplayer with my friends and now they are removing that feature <3 months after I bought the game, then I would not be a happy camper.

I don't think anyone truly expects a game's multiplayer should last forever, but it should last while the game is still popular and releasing updates.

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by kevingadd on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @10:34PM (#22177080)
Totally reasonable to be unhappy, sadly it's a common occurrence in this era of live services. Sometimes you buy an online-only game and the servers go down a month later. If you're lucky the devs will be nice and refund you, sometimes they don't.
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by yellowarchangel on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @02:08PM (#22172942)
From a purely business decision? Sure. But why does Valve support linux and attempt to bridge the gap with steam play if it's only about profit?

There are other reasons to support linux:

- Game devs are usually a fan of linux / vulkan / open source (windows is bad for developers, it's closed source everything) - Linux is still a market portion. Some engines like UE4 support cross-platform builds with minimal work - Supporting competition to microsoft, and the really poor DX software

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by sangnoir on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @06:23PM (#22175301)
> If user base on those platforms is very small then it makes no sense for the developers to spend resources to keep it updated. At the end of the day its about demand and supply.

How very rational. I wish HN had the same attitude each time Google sunsets a well-loved, but little-used product.

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by zahrc on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @02:20PM (#22173070)
The “normal” Windows gamer just doesn’t has a choice, unless they want to switch to PlayStation / Xbox, one of the choices developed by Microsoft, again.

The question is, how high or low is the demand for a equally performing alternative “pc gaming” platform? I personally would banish everything windows-related forever.

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by threatripper on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:17PM (#22171454)
They leave a gap in the market where a competitor could emerge.

EDIT: I know the gap is small, less than 1% but it is still a gap. If a competitor could emerge in a small gap like this is a question I cannot answer. There is potential for growth (especially if Microsoft slips up heavily which they almost did) but so far that growth hasn't happened and the future is hard to predict.

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by Kapura on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:37PM (#22171712)
The point of dropping support for those platforms is that the market isn't there. There is no gap to fill. There are maybe a few thousand people who will lose the game (unless they use bootcamp or wine).

Games cost money to make. If a game doesn't have a chance at breaking even, it needs external funding or free labour to get it made. This is the economic reality of how games get made.

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by threatripper on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:51PM (#22171921)
I don't have good numbers on Linux sales but Rocket League sold over 10 Million copies back in 2017 and Steam had 0.67% Linux users. That would make the estimate 67000 Linux users back then and probably a bit more today.

That's probably not enough for a competitor to make any money, especially since they could only catch a part of these users.

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by vel0city on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @01:50PM (#22172735)
That 10 million copies includes all the free ones they gave away on the Playstation. That's 10 million copies between Playstation, Xbox, Windows, Mac, and Linux. Some articles state about 40% of users were Playstation users with Steam users only being 30% [0]. Assuming the rates stayed the same and that an even number of Linux users bought the game as Windows (quite an assumption either way on both statistics) that would put the estimate of Linux Rocket League users closer to 20k, or 0.2% of the total purchased base. Overall, all these numbers are old and the final estimates are based on some big assumptions which may or may not be accurate.

[0] https://www.gamespot.com/articles/as-rocket-league-turns-one...

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by ssully on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:19PM (#22171478)
Do you have any examples where a serious competitor emerged because a game developer didn't support Linux or Mac?
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by threatripper on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:37PM (#22171708)
None that I know of. Almost all Linux games also support Windows.

Steam heavily supports Linux and in their numbers are 0.67% Linux users: https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Softw...

It is rumored that Steam uses Linux for leverage in negotiations with Microsoft. Therefore it may have a big strategic value for them even though the numbers are still so low.

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by Macha on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @04:02PM (#22173982)
I mean, Valve's Linux support happened because they were spooked by the Windows Store and the idea of a possible future iOS style lockdown leaving them shut out of the market
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by yyyk on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @05:10PM (#22174654)
The casual link is nigh-impossible to prove.

However, Bungie started as a Mac shop, and Stardock started as an OS/2 shop. It's possible to make the claim that had more commercial games been available to these relatively small platforms in the 90s, there wouldn't have been enough space for these game companies to emerge.

As I said, I can't prove that. It's quite possible these companies would have been successful anyway.

Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by speedgoose on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:37PM (#22171713)
SuperTux and Gnome Mines!
Re:Rocket League left behind on macOS and Linux due to Direc... by Pfhreak on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @12:34PM (#22171672)
It's a really small gap though. Significantly less than 1% of sales gap.