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Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by Beltiras on Friday January 24, 2020 @08:45AM (#22138125)
I'm amazed that the industry is still propagating the mistake made in the early nuclear age of using PWR and solid fuel. The more I read about nuclear the more convinced I become that SMRs for next gen plants are safest and most efficient using the Thorium-U233 fuel cycle and employing molten salt to transfer heat. It's automatically safe since if a runaway reaction takes place the fuel will drain into a tank and reactions will stop. This happens if no action is taken so all the humans at the plant and all the machinery could be incapacitated and a meltdown automatically stops. It uses a cheaper fuel of which we have a virtually endless supply of and enrichment is not needed as it is with U238-U235. There's less waste as well and it's less problematic waste (decaying in hundreds of years instead of millions). Operationally it's easier to load up fuel and wastes are easier to remove. Is it just "this is how we always do these things" or is there something else going on here?
Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by DrNuke on Friday January 24, 2020 @09:18AM (#22138434)
> Is it just "this is how we always do these things" or is there something else going on here?

That tech is known, well designed, approved and extensively proven through many thousand years manwork experience worldwide. It’s also the most affordable in liberalized markets. Going smaller & modular is the real novelty in the industry, for grid-agnostic coupling and decoupling. FYI: I have been consulting and designing innovative or exotic NPPs for years and I am now pretty confident I will not live long enough to see any one of them built and working, maybe not even at the demonstrator stage... but this side of the story might come good for another post ehehe.

Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by Beltiras on Friday January 24, 2020 @09:32AM (#22138578)
I'm just a layman with enthusiastic interest. Can I ask you about one thing in this pipeline of decision making since you are in the field?

Refueling is easier to do in MSRs and nigh takes away an embarrassing long downtime while the solid fuel is loaded. Why is that not a first concern (less downtime means more energy from roughly same capital expenditure)?

Safety is critical. It also costs a lot. With MSRs you need less land and can place the plant closer to the point of use (frozen plug to drain tank makes it so that any runaway is contained without intervention). It's even been suggested that for high-thermal uses like steel plants you could get better efficiency by using a thermal plant instead of making electricity for at least a twofold gain in power use. Is there anything inherently wrong with that idea?

Is the dialysis design as solid as it looks like on paper? Are there operational problems with it that the advocates are not talking about?

I have so many questions.....

Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by DrNuke on Friday January 24, 2020 @09:47AM (#22138703)
Good to have interested laymen, really, so thanks!

The fundamental point is (in my very humble opinion, mind) you may still have a business case for nuclear in 2020 but no feasible return on investment against non-nuclear sources for decades-long experiments that, all in all, are aimed at marginal improvements in the grand scheme of things and the enormous hassle proponents have to face.

It is fusion or nothing, apart of a couple of Gen IV that are advanced enough already, for the next 20-30 years or such in the West (China or Russia might be more ambitious, but they are not liberal or neoliberal democracies, so they can play a different game to some extent)... until all the PWRs still operating worldwide must be put down for obsolescence.

For a layman computer science comparison, think of the still up-and-running fortran legacy in some sectors (banks?) you won’t really really want to drop if not really forced to... because it works, you need no fix, you do not expect any unheard catastrophic incident or accident anymore.

Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by Beltiras on Friday January 24, 2020 @10:15AM (#22138908)
That's the thing. Thorium doesn't sound to me like an incremental change at all. It sounds like a gamechanger. There is no blast radius. At all. Criticality in that sense is not possible. There's improvement along every measurable criteria of operation. Some of those improvements are not small either. This is all contingent on me not being mistaken in my assumptions. I've only ever seen the argument from the advocates.

It sounds a little apocalyptic putting all of ones hopes on a technology that may or may not work at all. We have no guarantee that fusion will provide a return. It's the tech of choice because of wishful thinking. Gen 4 and liquid fuels are proven to work and eliminate a big slew of the disadvantages that made people fearful of NPPs. IMO if a part of the solution to CO2 is DAC then we will need massive energy generation to run the capture plants and we need them soon. No tech can deliver that in the next 10 years safely except Thorium.

There's nothing wrong with old tech in computer science. You can containerize Fortran batch programs with ease. All old things come back once in a while. Functional programming is now the rave and Common LiSP actually sees use.

Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by DrNuke on Friday January 24, 2020 @10:20AM (#22138966)
> There's nothing wrong with old tech in computer science. You can containerize Fortran batch programs with ease. All old things come back once in a while. Functional programming is now the rave and Common LiSP actually sees use.

You got it. May I second that as a nuclear eng for nuclear? Small & Modular is your container... and the novel, distributed grid at transnational level is your framework!?

Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by Beltiras on Friday January 24, 2020 @10:53AM (#22139272)
I don't think that translates well here. There aren't very many new projects being started up using Fortran. There are some. But the vast majority of Fortran is shrinking legacy because we have better solutions to those problems today (R/Python for Fortran).
Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by jason0597 on Friday January 24, 2020 @11:21AM (#22139587)
>Gen 4 and liquid fuels are proven to work

Proven to work on lab scale, or an industrial scale? Because one thing is very different from the other

Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by victorfriedrich on Friday January 24, 2020 @12:19PM (#22140312)
Hearing about the thorium fuel cycle for the first time – would you say that this article from 2012 is still up to date?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/energysource/2012/02/16/the-thi...

Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by jason0597 on Friday January 24, 2020 @11:11AM (#22139474)
Someone made an excellent post on reddit a while back on why Thorium reactors will never become a reality, it's a really good read: https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/9unimr/dutch_satiri...
Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by Lutzb on Friday January 24, 2020 @11:49AM (#22139936)
Thank you, this was very informative. It seems a lot of thorium reactor proponents never discuss those issues or are not aware of them.
Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by pjc50 on Friday January 24, 2020 @08:53AM (#22138210)
Plumbing is a problem for hot radioactive molten salt. It's one of the few things that will erode ordinary stainless steel.
Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by 0x4863A0 on Friday January 24, 2020 @09:25AM (#22138503)
Agreed that is a significant gating factor, but the situation is not impossible. Several paths are laid out for moving forward in a 2018 report by a couple of ANL scientists. The report is quite readable, even if you know little about materials science.

[1] https://art.inl.gov/ART%20Document%20Library/High%20Temperat...

Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by kerkeslager on Friday January 24, 2020 @10:16AM (#22138916)
Does titanium hold up to radioactive molten salt?

There are a bunch of places I've found where the difficulty (and therefore cost) of working with titanium is really holding humanity back. If we could find cheaper techniques for working with titanium it would revolutionize a lot of industries, as it's plentiful, light, strong, non-reactive, and melts at high temperatures. But the same attributes that make it hold up under the stresses of use, make it very hard to shape.

Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by akiselev on Friday January 24, 2020 @10:29AM (#22139063)
A radioactive fluoride salt might just be one of the most corrosive substances on the planet. Titanium might hold up a little longer but not by much.

Any material that can resist the corrosion will be bombarded by neutrons until it is transmuted into another material that can't, even with "slow" neutrons.

Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by kerkeslager on Friday January 24, 2020 @11:56AM (#22140033)
Okay, what's the solution?

The Wikipedia article[1] says, "A 2011 MIT study concluded that although there is little in the way of barriers to a thorium fuel cycle, with current or near term light-water reactor designs there is also little incentive for any significant market penetration to occur. As such they conclude there is little chance of thorium cycles replacing conventional uranium cycles in the current nuclear power market, despite the potential benefits." What did they know at MIT in 2011 that we don't? Or were they just wrong?

If really no material will work for this, I can only imagine some sort of mag-lev design that keeps the molten salt out of contact with other materials, but that seems kind of far-fetched.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium_fuel_cycle

Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by akiselev on Friday January 24, 2020 @01:21PM (#22140980)
The solution is to replace the reactor chamber far more often than you would in other reactor designs. It's not actually an insurmountable problem because fluoride chemistry is extremely common in nuclear engineering - most of our nuclear waste is stored as uranium hexafluoride after all - and there is a lot of expertise in dealing with exotic corrosive materials. It's just that replacing your entire reactor every year is astronomically expensive. Just because the technology exists to do it, doesn't mean that it can be done economically when competing against natural gas, solar, and wind.
Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by Someone on Friday January 24, 2020 @12:43PM (#22140572)
”I can only imagine some sort of mag-lev design that keeps the molten salt out of contact with other materials”

If you were to build that, how would you transfer the heat out of the molten salt?

Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by kerkeslager on Friday January 24, 2020 @02:46PM (#22141772)
I have no idea! Like I said, farfetched.
Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by mortivore on Friday January 24, 2020 @09:43AM (#22138670)
That seems like a pretty major issue. No wonder it hasn't gone forward. Are there any alternatives proposed?
Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by Beltiras on Friday January 24, 2020 @09:10AM (#22138361)
I haven't researched those issues but apparently it could be done with stone age tech (1960's) compared to the material sciences we have today.
Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by mechhacker on Friday January 24, 2020 @09:32AM (#22138579)
Yes they ran the molten salt reactor.

However, running one and being able to make a cost effective reactor is completely different.

Especially when water is already a very well known and very well understood heat transfer medium.

Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by Beltiras on Friday January 24, 2020 @09:37AM (#22138624)
And we understand it to be rather dangerous in failure modes. TMI, Chernobyl and Fukushima all revolved around failure modes with water. The failure mode in Thorium is stopping the reactor. Will take a month or more to restart the reaction.
Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by pentae on Friday January 24, 2020 @08:51AM (#22138197)
I also went down that rabbithole and I'm also convinced, but I'm not aware of any Thorium reactors currently in operation.

Not being a proven technology would certainly be a business risk to consider though Thorium would be an easier pill to swallow politically and socially once the population is aware of the safety benefits.

Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by Beltiras on Friday January 24, 2020 @09:03AM (#22138309)
It was proven to work back in the 60's. With way worse material tech than we have today. The reinvigoration of Thorium research happened when that design was declassified and shared with some NASA folks.

EDIT: wrong decade

Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by Accujack on Friday January 24, 2020 @11:53AM (#22139992)
The PWR tech was chosen by the US government originally because using that type of reactor supported weapons production. Many countries still want it for that reason.

Newer types aren't used yet in the US because the incredible over-regulation of existing reactors due to the fear involved has made them very un-economical to build and very difficult to get new designs approved... if there's no money in something, corporations won't do it.

Re:Rolls-Royce plans mini nuclear reactors by 2029 by MuffinFlavored on Friday January 24, 2020 @11:04AM (#22139396)
> It uses a cheaper fuel of which we have a virtually endless supply of

Which fuel is that? Thorium-U233?