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Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by creaghpatr on Friday January 17, 2020 @10:02AM (#22075135)
Good case for the electoral college, localize the corruption to the state-level.
Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by save_ferris on Friday January 17, 2020 @10:22AM (#22075326)
The electoral college is the sole reason 2 out of the last 3 presidents lost the popular vote while winning the general election.

In no universe does the electoral college mitigate corruption on the federal level. In fact, one could argue that it makes corruption worse, because a candidate only has to win a few key states to tip the election, regardless of the popular vote.

Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by toast0 on Friday January 17, 2020 @01:41PM (#22077707)
> In fact, one could argue that it makes corruption worse, because a candidate only has to win a few key states to tip the election, regardless of the popular vote.

With the electoral college, we don't hold a popular vote.

This provides compartmentalization of corruption --- if election officials in some state cause an extra 10,000 votes to be counted for their preferred candidate, it may affect their state's selection of electors, but can't influence the results of other states. In a close election by popular vote, 10,000 votes could be very significant.

Additionally, the electoral college provides compartmentalization of natural disasters. If there's a blizzard in some state (or several), their voting turnout will likely be much lower, and there is no provision for makeup elections; however, we can assume that voters of different parties will have reasonably equal difficulty getting to the polls, so within the local area, the resulting ratios should be similar to results of a non-disrupted election. However, the disrupted states would cast many fewer votes, so other states would have more influence; if the state was highly in favor of one candidate, it could be a big swing.

Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by reaperducer on Friday January 17, 2020 @12:20PM (#22076760)
it makes corruption worse, because a candidate only has to win a few key states to tip the election, regardless of the popular vote.

The alternative is only counting the popular vote, which only serves to disenfranchise the majority of states.

Without the electoral college, a candidate would only have to campaign in and win three or four large states, and the rest of the nations and its concerns can be ignored.

That concern is the whole reason we have the House/Senate system: So that large states with lots of people in the House of Representatives don't run amok. The Senate balances that out.

Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by save_ferris on Friday January 17, 2020 @02:16PM (#22078090)
> Without the electoral college, a candidate would only have to campaign in and win three or four large states, and the rest of the nations and its concerns can be ignored.

But this system already exists via swing states. Voters in Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida determine the election currently, just look at how much is spent on advertising in those states compared to non-swing states. Look at how often candidates visit Ohio vs Kentucky.

The idea that the electoral college equally franchises all Americans is purely a myth.

Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by ezrast on Friday January 17, 2020 @02:39PM (#22078354)
A popular vote "disenfranchises" any voting bloc that stands in opposition to a majority. Do you believe this strategy of ameliorating tyranny-of-the-majority scenarios by weighting votes generalizes to demographics other than place of residence? Can we give extra votes to all disadvantaged populations, or is there something unique about small-state folks?
Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by erichurkman on Friday January 17, 2020 @01:44PM (#22077748)
> The alternative is only counting the popular vote, which only serves to disenfranchise the majority of states.

The majority of red states are also the majority of the population, so this doesn't check out. (Trump states ~180mm to Hillary's ~140mm.)

Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by cmendel on Saturday January 18, 2020 @12:41AM (#22082567)
This is false.

https://www.cnn.com/election/2016/results

>Trump 46.4% votes 62,984,825

>Clinton 48.5% votes 65,853,5165

Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by creaghpatr on Friday January 17, 2020 @01:05PM (#22077330)
More specifically, a state that 'cheats' can only impact their share of electoral votes, rather than bleed into the popular count of all states' electoral votes.
Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by ars on Friday January 17, 2020 @01:20PM (#22077480)
> The electoral college is the sole reason 2 out of the last 3 presidents lost the popular vote while winning the general election.

That's not exactly true though, because of the electoral college Republicans in California don't bother to vote, since their vote doesn't count.

If you didn't have an electoral college then the popular vote count would have been different.

You can't change the rules of the game after the fact and say "look we would have won", without also considering that people would have played differently with different rules.

Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by ianai on Friday January 17, 2020 @02:03PM (#22077953)
That’s not the claim. The candidate who won a majority of votes lost the election through the electoral college in those cases.
Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by salawat on Friday January 17, 2020 @03:33PM (#22078919)
You still haven't touched on what the post you're replying to is pointing out, which is that people behave differently when the rules change. A Californian Republican may as well not vote at all. If it went off national popular vote, then those Californian minority voters would still have a reason to make sure their vote was counted.

Regardless, it's a moot point, because according to the Constitution as written, those electors are supposed to only be accountable to themselves. The idea being the community electing the most level-headed and educated amongst them to make the decision everyone else would be okay with.

Most states don't respect that intent since the formation of the Party system, so really what we have now is little more than an abomination completely unintended by the Founders.

Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by toast0 on Friday January 17, 2020 @03:59PM (#22079243)
If there's upsetness about this, why are we not upset that the Libertarian party didn't get 3 people in the house of representatives, given that it won 0.7[1]% of the popular vote for house representatives; or that the Democrats should have 1.4 additional representatives if you ignore 3rd party candidates and look at just vote count between Democrats and Republicans.

Despite what the ballot may say, voters in the various states are voting for electors, not for president, and the votes can't be added together into a meaningful number.

You could certainly take the numbers, along with registered party affiliation and other demographic data, and historic data from more contested elections in the various precincts, and guess what the vote counts might be at various levels of turnout (including scenarios where more eligible but currently unregistered persons turn out to vote), and those guesses would likely make for a much more interesting discussion than just pointing out a number that seems like a statistical oddity.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_United_States_House_of_Re...

Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by caseysoftware on Friday January 17, 2020 @11:18AM (#22075941)
Which countries practice direct democracy for their top executives (Presidents, PMs, etc)?
Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by corporate_shi11 on Friday January 17, 2020 @12:25PM (#22076810)
A popular vote would be awful.

Would incentivize just campaigning to get as many people to vote as possible in the highest density population centers, meanwhile most people don't even pay attention to politics and have no interest in it.

These people really should not be voting in the first place and a system which encourages vote harvesting even more than it already is encouraged is not a step in the right direction.

Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by save_ferris on Friday January 17, 2020 @07:14PM (#22081103)
> a system which encourages vote harvesting even more than it already is is encouraged is not a step in the right direction

Are you arguing that it’s bad when all Americans are encouraged to vote? That sounds like a functional democracy to me.

Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by corporate_shi11 on Saturday January 18, 2020 @12:31AM (#22082527)
Yes, encouraging everyone to vote is bad.

I agree with many of the Founders that the people often get in their own way, not thinking rationally and focusing only on the short term.

The will and petty desire of the mob needs to be balanced against what is really good for the nation in the long run.

Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by ianai on Friday January 17, 2020 @10:08AM (#22075199)
That system has never acted as a deliberate body. It’s merely a way to further the tyranny of the minority.
Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by jellicle on Friday January 17, 2020 @10:19AM (#22075302)
Can you explain more about how the electoral college is supposed to combat a state with corrupted elections?
Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by sokoloff on Friday January 17, 2020 @11:53AM (#22076388)
It partitions/firewalls the impact of the fraud to an individual state.

The voting power of Georgia residents may have been compromised here, but the voting power of the rest of the country was unaffected. In a popular voting system, that would not be the case (if the fraud increased reported voter turnout, seizing more voting power into the fraudulent election, for example).

Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by boomboomsubban on Friday January 17, 2020 @02:05PM (#22077982)
In both situations, the election is compromised. Knowing my vote was secure in a compromised election does not provide any benefit.
Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by sokoloff on Friday January 17, 2020 @02:26PM (#22078203)
That's one way to look at it and I certainly have some sympathy for/agreement with that point of view.

Another way to look at it is that each other state's Elector selection process is their business. The Constitution does not provide any assurances that other states will choose their Electors by any particular process, but instead specifically reserves that for each state's Legisature. A state would be within their rights to choose them winner-take-all, in proportion to the popular vote, or by a random draw from a Powerball machine and you and I would have no say over it (as non-residents).

Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by boomboomsubban on Friday January 17, 2020 @02:54PM (#22078508)
>Another way to look at it is that each other state's Elector selection process is their business.

Similarly, the entire election is the business of every citizen. "Their business" has a direct impact on my life, so I should have some say in the matter.

>The Constitution does not provide any assurances that other states will choose their Electors by any particular process,

The Constitution sets up the electoral college. That doesn't make it a good system.

Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by sokoloff on Friday January 17, 2020 @02:56PM (#22078529)
There's a process for amending the Constitution. Until that's done, this is the system we have.
Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by yongjik on Friday January 17, 2020 @03:37PM (#22078969)
I thought 2000 presidential election put an end to this kind of reasoning? The result of a national election, literally hanging on the chads of a few extremely poorly managed districts in Florida.
Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by toast0 on Friday January 17, 2020 @04:25PM (#22079521)
If Florida 2000 was bad, a nationwide recount would be even worse.
Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by yongjik on Friday January 17, 2020 @04:46PM (#22079762)
The original argument was that electoral college "localizes" statewide corruption. I pointed out it didn't. Whether a popular election is also susceptible to statewide corruption is a different matter - of course it is, but unlike electoral college, a corrupt state can never wield disproportionate power.
Re:Georgia election server showed signs of tampering, expert... by toast0 on Friday January 17, 2020 @05:26PM (#22080166)
With the electoral college, a corrupt state can force its votes, and that can swing the election if the electoral count is close enough; if it's a large state, that's pretty likely, I suppose.

With a popular vote, a corrupt state (or precinct) can manufacture votes, and if they can plausibly manufacture enough votes in a close election, that can swing the election too.