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Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by elagost on Saturday January 11, 2020 @06:01PM (#22023007)
Is there a better alternative to Firefox? Of all the browsers it seems like the "least bad" choice (above Chromium, and other proprietary browsers) and I use it, but is there something safer, simpler, and more secure?
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by toyg on Saturday January 11, 2020 @06:23PM (#22023149)
> is there something safer, simpler, and more secure?

No.

Building a good browser is hard. Typically you can get something "safer" (from a privacy/business model perspective) and/or "simpler" (from a development perspective) relatively easily - see KHTML and other niche efforts. But when it comes to "more secure" while supporting modern web features, you need a lot of skilled eyeballs on code and a lot of people trying to break things. You achieve that either with tons of visibility, or with tons of money. Those small projects have neither. Mozilla has both.

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by ethbro on Saturday January 11, 2020 @06:45PM (#22023283)
Also, it's a never-ending task, given web evolution.
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by rvz on Saturday January 11, 2020 @06:32PM (#22023202)
The downvotes in this section clearly show the real state of browser technologies and the few choice one will have if they use an alternative OS.

Brave and Vivaldi are still forks of Chromium, Waterfox is a fork of Firefox. Thus you are not going to find any updated alternatives like those on the BSDs anytime soon.

Meanwhile, WebKit-based browsers doesn't seem to suffer from the overuse of dependencies and multiple languages nor does it have packaging hell unlike Chromium and Firefox.

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by andrekandre on Saturday January 11, 2020 @09:18PM (#22024001)
> Meanwhile, WebKit-based browsers doesn't seem to suffer from the overuse of dependencies and multiple languages nor does it have packaging hell unlike Chromium and Firefox.

why is that?

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by saagarjha on Saturday January 11, 2020 @10:01PM (#22024178)
WebKit is commonly used on many platforms, so I’d guess that plays a big role in it.
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by kevingadd on Sunday January 12, 2020 @06:25AM (#22025755)
In the case of Blink at least, they basically own almost all their dependencies. From my memory WebKit is the same. It makes sense that they would end up that way given their history - KHTML -> Safari -> Chrome all target multiple runtime environments and in the case of Safari especially they were targeting an environment without a bunch of existing unix/linux history behind it.

In comparison historically Firefox has been more aggressive about pulling in 3rd-party dependencies like cairo, ANGLE, etc.

(You could count ANGLE as a 3rd-party dependency for Blink, I suppose, but I don't because AFAIK it's a Google project originally)

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by marmaduke on Saturday January 11, 2020 @06:20PM (#22023131)
Odd that the three replies to your question are grayed out.

I don't think there is a viable alternative to Firefox unless you accept a simple web experience and use eg w3m

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by protomyth on Saturday January 11, 2020 @06:33PM (#22023214)
Chromium runs on OpenBSD.
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by thrwaway69 on Saturday January 11, 2020 @06:03PM (#22023022)
I use vivaldi. It provides a lot of customization for my taste unlike others.

My biggest problem with most browsers is tied to how they handle tab management and lacks basic features that should be there without installing an extension.

Example - stacking, auto closing, filter, finder etc. Not hiding tabs after certain number of them.

edit: more info here at https://vivaldi.com/features/tab-management/

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by big_chungus on Saturday January 11, 2020 @08:13PM (#22023704)
Suckless Surf may be the simplest one out there: https://surf.suckless.org/

It's basically a lightweight interface to webkit. There's only so light one can go, however; a browser basically ships an entire rendering stack and big chunks of an OS, and with all the weird features and backwards compatibility issues that have accumulated, one can only go so small.

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by shpx on Saturday January 11, 2020 @07:27PM (#22023478)
The only true alternative I see on the horizon is https://servo.org/ from Mozilla, but it's still a work-in-progress.
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by Gaelan on Saturday January 11, 2020 @07:55PM (#22023592)
My understanding is that there will never be a consumer-facing browser called "Servo." Instead, pieces of Servo will get merged into Firefox as they become production-ready (this has already begun). Presumably, eventually everything will be merged in and Servo will stop existing as a separate project.
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by fulafel on Sunday January 12, 2020 @09:02AM (#22026296)
Isn't Servo mostly a harness for the rendering engine and some other components, known as WebRender, Quanyum CSS etc wheb used in Firefox.
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by LeoPanthera on Saturday January 11, 2020 @07:55PM (#22023593)
GNOME has "GNOME Web", previously known as Epiphany.

KDE has "Falkon".

Both are quite good.

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by snazz on Saturday January 11, 2020 @08:14PM (#22023715)
I'd still be seriously concerned about how few eyeballs they get with regards to security---Google has entire fleets of machines dedicated to fuzzing every line of Chromium code and both Chrome and Firefox use advanced sandboxing to make it so that a single exploit in the JavaScript engine wouldn't be able to result in user-level remote code execution. I'm sure they're both probably fine (if nothing else from security by obscurity) but modern browsers are complicated pieces of software that require a lot of engineering to keep secure.
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by saagarjha on Saturday January 11, 2020 @10:03PM (#22024184)
GNOME Web is based on WebKit, while Falkon has migrated away from QtWebKit to QtWebEngine, which is Chromium based.
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by LeoPanthera on Saturday January 11, 2020 @10:05PM (#22024196)
It's slightly ironic for KDE, as Blink is a fork of WebKit, which itself is a fork of KHTML, which was originally the KDE HTML renderer.

Full circle!

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by gtk40 on Monday January 13, 2020 @09:33AM (#22034745)
KDE also has Konqueror, which now allows you to use either KHTML or WebKit as the rendering engine. KHTML works fine on simple sites like Hacker News nowadays but chokes on newer ones often.
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by arminiusreturns on Saturday January 11, 2020 @09:24PM (#22024028)
Emacs eww, lynx?
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by alwillis on Saturday January 11, 2020 @06:07PM (#22023046)
Brave.

Blocks all trackers, fingerprinting and mining scripts by default, based on Chromium. Built-in IPFS, Webtorrent and Tor: https://brave.com/

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by roca on Saturday January 11, 2020 @11:11PM (#22024415)
The parent poster already ruled out Chromium.
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by SaxonRobber on Saturday January 11, 2020 @06:10PM (#22023068)
Also a botnet
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by app4soft on Saturday January 11, 2020 @06:12PM (#22023082)
Waterfox (with Web Extensions) or Pale Moon (with XUL/UXP extensions)
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by smacktoward on Saturday January 11, 2020 @06:30PM (#22023196)
If security is something you’re looking for, “Firefox plus some ancient, unmaintained legacy code and patches jammed in by random third parties” is not substantially more appealing than just Firefox by itself.
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by superkuh on Saturday January 11, 2020 @08:15PM (#22023719)
Your description does not apply to the two examples given. It's obvious you don't even know what they are even if you knew what they were 5 years ago. Look again.

Pale Moon and the like aren't just ancient Firefox code. And without all the 'features' Firefox keeps adding in that are irrelevant to a browser that renders html and executes JS they're just as secure.

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by tialaramex on Sunday January 12, 2020 @10:35AM (#22026712)
I ran into Pale Moon years ago when Let's Encrypt was started and that experience gives an adequate flavour of their approach to security.

The up shot is Pale Moon's maintainers decided they don't trust Let's Encrypt for spurious reasons. But if you use Pale Moon you've probably never noticed this because Let's Encrypt is cross-signed, and so even though Pale Moon claims not to trust them, the cross-signature makes everything still work because they didn't intervene.

So that's a bad decision, combined with total incompetence to produce the appearance where everything looks fine.

That's exactly the sort of thing in a browser that should make people run away screaming.

In the years that followed Pale Moon wanted to keep StartSSL (the outfit which straight up lied to us about issuing clearly bogus certificates for money, Pale Moon's maintainers apparently feel that this shows "integrity") and described Mozilla's distrust decision as a "foot gun". How did that work out? Oh right, it turns out that everybody else doesn't trust liars either and so Pale Moon eventually went along with this because as others explained in practice they're mostly just applying patches blind to core Firefox subsystems like NSS.

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by elagost on Saturday January 11, 2020 @06:20PM (#22023133)
If I'm to avoid Firefox, I'd like to avoid its forks as well - they don't really improve upon anything meaningful both of those have had more issues than Firefox in the past. I'm thinking smaller than Firefox.
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by samantohermes on Saturday January 25, 2020 @04:16PM (#22148666)
Firefox has been turned into a Chrome copycat with built-in blocklists and Tor Browser Bundle features.

1. https://www.palemoon.org/technical.shtml

2. https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:project:iceweasel...

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by app4soft on Saturday January 11, 2020 @07:12PM (#22023410)
> they don't really improve upon anything meaningful both of those have had more issues than Firefox in the past.

Please, prove it.

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by jcranmer on Saturday January 11, 2020 @07:57PM (#22023604)
From looking at the commit history of Pale Moon, it is maintained by essentially three people. Their maintenance strategy is to freeze at an old version of Firefox, and randomly backport patches purely to try to keep somewhat up-to-date on JS or DOM features. Given the sheer size of the codebase, its inherent complexity (a JIT compiler is going to be very ripe for potential security vulnerabilities), and the utter lack of any sign of trying to mitigate these problems (e.g., fuzzing, or even merely attempting to identify security fixes in Firefox that may warrant backporting), if you are worried about any security issues in Firefox, moving to such a fork should only worry you more.
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by samantohermes on Saturday January 25, 2020 @04:09PM (#22148631)
> randomly backport patches purely to try to keep somewhat up-to-date on JS or DOM features

It's not "random", inform yourself: https://www.palemoon.org/roadmap.shtml

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by app4soft on Saturday January 11, 2020 @08:17PM (#22023733)
I not see any proofs here. Only your personal opinion.
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by jcranmer on Saturday January 11, 2020 @08:27PM (#22023775)
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by superkuh on Saturday January 11, 2020 @08:17PM (#22023736)
>utter lack of any sign of trying to mitigate these problems (e.g., fuzzing, or even merely attempting to identify security fixes in Firefox that may warrant backporting),

And here's where you show you're making it up and haven't even looked at a Pale Moon release notes, http://www.palemoon.org/releasenotes.shtml

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by dang on Sunday January 12, 2020 @02:16AM (#22024984)
Would you please leave personal swipes out of your HN comments, or edit them out if they make it in? They break the site guidelines, you've done it more than once in this thread, and I'm sure you can make your substantive points without them.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by jcranmer on Saturday January 11, 2020 @08:54PM (#22023902)
I don't read release notes, I read the commits and the patches themselves. Actually, I did check after posting, and they appear to do the bare minimum--port the posted CVEs, which won't even account for all the security bugs. There are definitely several commits I've seen them do where they specifically revert changes that rewrite functionality to be safer, but don't actually fix any specific known security flaw.

If I really wanted to scare you, I'd tell you about such security-friendly-sounding commits as "we don't want the newest release of the [crypto] library, let's freeze at an older version" or "re-enable support for RC4 in TLS." But that would be unfair, because you'd actually have to read the commit to judge for yourself if I'm quoting them in good context.

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by samantohermes on Saturday January 25, 2020 @04:11PM (#22148638)
> Actually, I did check after posting, and they appear to do the bare minimum--port the posted CVEs, which won't even account for all the security bugs

If you actually read the release notes, you wouldn't say this.

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by useragent86 on Sunday January 12, 2020 @08:25AM (#22026171)
It's hard for me to make sense of what you're saying.

1. You don't seem to think the Pale Moon has value, nor that it should be used.

2. You say you don't read their release notes--which makes sense if you don't think it's worthy.

However:

3. You say you do spend time reading their patches--which doesn't make sense if you don't think it's worthy.

4. Their release notes frequently mention "defense-in-depth" patches which are their own work, not, as you put it, to "randomly backport patches purely to try to keep somewhat up-to-date"--which conflicts with your claims about their work.

So you say you read their patches, yet you don't appear to read all of them. And you say you don't read their release notes, yet you speak as if you have comprehensive knowledge of their work.

Then you say something that's supposed to be scary, but then you say that it might not actually be scary, and you won't tell us whether it actually is.

So, regardless of whether Pale Moon is valuable or useful or secure to any degree, isn't your comment a textbook example of FUD? What's your purpose here?

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by superkuh on Saturday January 11, 2020 @08:13PM (#22023702)
Yes. Firefox forks that forked before Mozilla jumped the shark (v37, then multiprocess, then rust) that evolved into their own thing without all the features/attack surfaces that aren't strictly required for a browser to just render html and execute JS.
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by snazz on Saturday January 11, 2020 @08:19PM (#22023743)
Simpler, sure. Safer and more secure, how? There's been a lot of new security features in Firefox recently that you'd be missing out on if you used something that old. You can't put "just" in front of "execute JS" (or "render HTML" for that matter); that's a pretty complex task with a lot of security concerns. I can't imagine that the communities of these Firefox forks can keep up with backporting upstream security fixes, especially since the modern Firefox codebase has diverged so much.
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by samantohermes on Saturday January 25, 2020 @04:13PM (#22148651)
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by c0nducktr on Saturday January 11, 2020 @09:35PM (#22024078)
Pretty sure this bug existed in v36 as well.